Sorcerer, or mage?

[Sythe]

last year I started a topic like this titled SORCERORS VS WIZARDS. I was favoring wizards and daan is right Dundee hasn't came yet and rip you to shreds just as he has to me. But still asn't changed my opinion. Sorcerors can cast a [b]FEW[\B] spells more often than Wizards can [B]BIG WOOP[\B]. Sure sorceros can cast some spells more often. Pretend this a wizard and a sorceror have both been friends for years and they all know their spells. Next week they both know they gotta fight eachother for some strange circumstance. The sorceror has to level up awfully quick to learn more spells. The mage knowing all the sorcerors spells can read scrolls that would counter the Sorcerors spells. I doubt that would happen. Wizards are more flexible. They have more access to a variety of spells and if they know what they are up against well they can easily learn memorize it and did I forget that you receive [B]EXPIERENCE POINTS[\B] for that.Now I heard from a paticular someone that when you create a sorceror and choose the wise spells it can counter about every situtation that comes walking to you. You know what I say? WRONG! yes yes I heard this example before. Lets say you are a dull witted sorceror. A archer is shooting at you and hits you when you were just about to cast magic missile. Well you will do it again and again and again. Well obviously you will eventually succeed. I tell this to all sorceror fans I reconize this advantage. But what if you go up against something lets say a uh uh well a monster right. And say the few spells you chose has now effect on him. Oh no you say I am almost completley useless. I can deal damage to it but hey not enough to kill it. This is a rule for wizards and sorcerors: No spells with no protection= DEATH. A wizard would most likely come with a variety of spells. The wizard might or might not kill it but most likey deal more damage than the sorceror can. But a sorceror against a monster that is vulnerable to most of the sorcerors spells is toast. Wizards can do this too. (But not all the time.) Now I am finished with my statement and am ready to see many many people go against me.

P.S. For the mage supporters out there please help me out cause last time I was alone against Dundee (shrudders) and many other sorceror supporters.

[drewal]

Let's use my level 38 necromancer as an example...

The advantage lies in having a greater repetoire of spells available, and he's got just about every spell in his book.

If both spellcasters were equally skilled, they would be able to neutralize each other for a good period of time. But during that time, the mage would learn what spells the sorcerer has available, and rememorize-wish-rest accordingly. The sorcerer cannot do that.

The necro can summon anything, cast any offensive spell, cast any defensive spell, the sorcerer can't.

Since the sorcerer is limited, the necro will be able to block what needs blocking, and attack where the sorcerer is weakest.

The adaptability of the mage outweighs the brute force of the sorcerer.

The brute force of the sorcerer will take anything else out.

In the end, it would really come dowen to who fails a save first.

[Sythe]

well said very well said! Now I wonder what Dundee has to say hmm.

[LennonCook]

Some people make more powerful mages than sorcerers, some people are better off as a Sorcerer.
If you like knowing *exactly* what you can cast, *exactly* how many you can cast, and prepare for battles in advance with that knowledge, a mage is best for you.
If you`re like me, and often forget to re-organise your memorised spells, you will undoubtedly find a Sorc easier to play, and more powerful in your game than any of your mages. [img]smile.gif[/img]

*Waits for Dundee...*

[ 01-02-2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Crikey, some people seem to think I am an Ogre when it comes to debating. [img]tongue.gif[/img] On with the commenting,

Originally posted by drewal: Let's use my level 38 necromancer as an example...

I will use my level 31 Sorcerer as an example, giving you a slight advantage of one additional level nine spell, +7 HP and... that is about it I think.

The advantage lies in having a greater repetoire of spells available, and he's got just about every spell in his book.

I love this argument, because it is only truly an advantage, when most of the spells in the game are useful. Unfortunately, this is not so. Why, for some spell levels, I am forced to select mediorce spells simply because there are no other good spells already.

A Sorcerer can select 4-5 spells per spell level, and in a twisty way, this is roughly how many good spells there are per spell level. What a Sorcerer uses, is also what a Mage usually uses, but the Sorcerer has the advantage of immediate versatility and superior firepower to boot.

If both spellcasters were equally skilled, they would be able to neutralize each other for a good period of time. But during that time, the mage would learn what spells the sorcerer has available, and rememorize-wish-rest accordingly. The sorcerer cannot do that.

You would need the following at ALL times, Spell Immunity:Abjuration for Dispel Magic and Imprisonment, Globe of Invulnerability for level 1-4 spells, Spell Immunityivination for True Sight, Protection from Magical Weapons for Melf's Minute Meteors and summons, either Protection from Magical Energy or Spell Immunity:Necromancy for Finger of Death and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Spell Immunity:Enchantment for Feeblemind, etc... ...

If you are going to try and counter every single thing a Sorcerer can do, you are eventually going to lose because believe it or not, the spells I described above are endless and infinite until the Sorcerer stops spellcasting. This is because of the Wish spell, which the Sorcerer can use during battle to restore spells effectively.

Unless you lucked out or wasted all your level nine spell slots with the spell Wish, a Mage cannot do the same, and even then, not as effectively. Even with 25 WIS, the chance to get the "Rest & Rememorise" option is roughly 12.5% if I recall correctly.

A tip for Mage users out there, do not use the Wish route( too much of a gamble for Mages). That is for Sorcerers. Use the Spell Trap method that Alson uses. This tactic can be found on this website.

In conclusion, do not think that a Sorcerer is limited in his/her options.

The necro can summon anything, cast any offensive spell, cast any defensive spell, the sorcerer can't. Since the sorcerer is limited, the necro will be able to block what needs blocking, and attack where the sorcerer is weakest.

*GASP!* Horrors! I cannot summon a Warg! Oh, oh, oh the humanity! And Grease! I cannot cast Grease! Why oh why did I not pick Grease? *Sniffle*, and no Protection from Normal Missiles, surely I will perish now.

Rightttt... ...

Skeleton Warriors, Mordenkainen's Swords, Sword Spiders and Planetars are all an arcane spellcaster needs. Honestly... will a Sorcerer care if that Mage over there can conjure a Fire Elemental which will succumb to a MSword anyway?

A Sorcerer can kill anything with ease, so long as the battleground is not a Dead-Magic Zone. Ever Weimer, Modder of many of the outrageously difficult Improved Fights, admits that they are a cakewalk for a Sorcerer, because you see... a Sorcerer is the cheesiest arcane spellcaster in the game.

Short of psionics, a Sorcerer can defend him/herself from anything. A few select spells, and the Sorcerer more or less gives him/herself immunity to death. Why... for a lark, a Sorcerer can heal himself while simultaneously killing everybody in the MAP with the same spell. A Mage can try to do the same, but only a Sorcerer can take it to the extreme. Heard of the Ritual Mod? A Sorcerer can clear out the forest in less than a turn.

The adaptability of the mage outweighs the brute force of the sorcerer. The brute force of the sorcerer will take anything else out.

Strangely enough, it has always been the Sorcerer who has the easier time in the game. Why? Simply because offense IS the best defense. That smouldering pile of ashes cannot hurt you... ...

You speak of adaptability, but a Mage's adaptability is not during a battle. A Sorcerer can easily adapt during the battle, making last-minute decisions when something unexpected happens. A Mage cannot. When something unexpected happens to a Mage, what usually happens is that the next spell casted is called "Reload". [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I understand you have fought Improved Irenicus. I will let it be known that my Sorcerer, with NO prior knowledge of what goes on in that mod, with no clue and with no idea of what to expect, defeated that mod on Insane Difficulty on the very FIRST try with no reloading.

THAT's adaptability for you. A Sorcerer is not just about brute force, a Sorcerer is about brute force mixed with immediate versatility and very handy tactics that really come alive in a Sorcerer's hands, but are mediorce with a Mage.

In the end, it would really come dowen to who fails a save first.

Why give the opponent a chance, when you can use tactics that do not allow the target to save?

Mmmmm... brains... ...

[drewal]

You make a powerful point with the fact that you took down improved Irenicus on the first try on insane with a sorcerer - though I am yet a neophyte at soloing, this does seem to be very strong evidence in favour of the class.

I refuse, however, to capitulate on the sorcerer versus mage debate, until I experience first hand what a sorcerer can do.

Which means another run through the game with a magic user - a sorcerer. I will conceded the debate pending that effort.

[daan]

Dont worry, if you take a sorcerer through the game, you'll be done in no time

[Alson]

Impressive post, Dundee! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Comments:

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: A Sorcerer can select 4-5 spells per spell level, and in a twisty way, this is roughly how many good spells there are per spell level.

Hmmm... Be careful here. I would say that there are 4-5 spells per spell level that i use on regular basis, but most spell levels have about ~6 useful spells (i'm assuming party sorcerer here).

You would need the following at ALL times, Spell Immunity:Abjuration for Dispel Magic and Imprisonment,

Remove Magic, too.

Now, the defense settings depends on the arena settings. A big arena opens bigger opportunities - cast Mislead and hide the the decoy, run away and cast PI + Farshight, etc...

Even with 25 WIS, the chance to get the "Rest & Rememorise" option is roughly 12.5% if I recall correctly.

More like 20%.

A tip for Mage users out there, do not use the Wish route( too much of a gamble for Mages). That is for Sorcerers. Use the Spell Trap method that Alson uses. This tactic can be found on this website.

Yep - the Spell Trap method is better suited for Mages.

Skeleton Warriors, Mordenkainen's Swords, Sword Spiders and Planetars are all an arcane spellcaster needs.

I wholly agree.

Heard of the Ritual Mod? A Sorcerer can clear out the forest in less than a turn.

Though this will mean you're doing the quest the evil way.

Strangely enough, it has always been the Sorcerer who has the easier time in the game. Why? Simply because offense IS the best defense. That smouldering pile of ashes cannot hurt you... ...

Mwahahaha!
I've got you now, Dundee Slaytern!
I'm bookmarking this thread! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[rhapsody407]

consider this: A mage is fighting a sorcerer of an equal level. Both have 4 level 7 spells and 3 level 8 spells and 2 level 9 spells.

Level 9 selections are Spell Strike and Spell Trap (i would use energy drain...but then it would be a contest of fast-casting...kinda cheesy)

Level 8 selections: Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting, Pierce Shield, Incendiary Cloud

Level 7 selections :Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Spell Turning

probably the best mage vs mage spells out there (excluding the obvious cheese spells)

consider this: the sorcerer has 2 full-dispels, and 2 partial dispells with lower resistance, and 4 partial dispells, while he can cast spell trap twice, and spell turning four times.

the mage on the other hand, would have to fill up his entire vault of available spells to be able to match the abilities of the sorcerer just in dispelling...and not be able to do damage, whereas the sorcerer still retains all of his other spells.

If the mage were to memorize each of the spells once, for the purpose of versatility, the mage would lose, simply because he couldn't dispell all of the sorcerer's shields. The mage would have 1 total dispell, 1 partial dispell with lower resistance, and 1 partial dispell. The sorcerer can cast spell turning 4 times, and spell trap 2 times. And still have all of his level 8 spells to kill with.

This is why the sorcerer is better than the mage.

[daan]

Yup, as Dundee already said :
-Mages are a little more versatile -not necessarily more effective though- before any fight.
-sorcerers are more versatile during the fight

A plan that cant be changed, 'll probably fail . . .
A mage has more capabilities to come up with a very broad spell-plan .. but the sorcerer can constantly adapt to any situation. A lot more helpfull.