One question to atheists II (does that mean it's two questions now??)

[Gammit]

Originally posted by Dagorion: Ok, I didnt really bother reading most of the posts in this topic (mainly because I have to mow the lawn in a few minutes *shudder*) but to answer the question of how we are different from animals is easy. Gods own teachings (if you believe he exists) have told us that we have the ability to comprehend and use intelegent thaught, thus giving us the ability to recognise the existence of God. Also on a side note, we are made in gods own image in the fact that we have the capasity for love and intelegent thaught, it matters not what we look like. Some people think that "if Gods teachings told us that we were made perfect then why do we have fat bodies or those pointy teeth?" Well thats just stupid, we were made spiritually perfect because we all have the capasity to use the virtues (love, kindness, tact, the other 200 or so ones there are) that help us be better people and do what that Christian prayer says "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (if this is written wrong im sorry) this is just what i have been told but that prayer speaks of the creation of gods kingdom on earth asin, if we keep being good people and working towards the betterment of mankind we can forfil our purpose as people of gods faiths (Jewish, Muslum, Christian, Baha'i) to bring an age of happiness and ... well, perfection to earth. Please dont be offended by what i have said, this is just my opinion and if you feel angered by this just remember that no human is infallable and I may therefore be wrong. (breaths deaply) *Gibberish mode: off*

that's a really good explanation, Dragorion!

[esquire]

Hmm Ok just to keep this thread on topic, still about being atheist isn’t it? J

I’ll tell ya my theory of reality in a nutshell. First of all I don’t believe in a god or gods or that they have any kind of domain over my existence. I dunno, I suppose when it really comes down to it I can’t prove that a god doesn’t exist any more than someone can prove that he/she or it does, it really is a matter of perspective…to an extent. I believe that I can trust my perception and that there are laws of science we can depend on to define, describe, and manipulate our reality. How do I come to this position? Easy! We get results with being empirical. For instance, pray as much as you like, but you won’t invent an atomic bomb like magic. You can build one by understanding how atoms work however. Ah, but then what about divine inspriation you ask?... eh, I call that imagination.

Likewise I’m a writer and I like to write, where does my inspiration come from? Part from random chance, part imagination, part what I have experienced, mix it all together and I get something original and unique. I believe in cause and effect essentially--- and most importantly, that everything, and I mean everything is explainable, quantifiable,and knowable. Sure we don’t have answers for everything now, but eventually, perhaps a millennia from now, we may, or at least be a little bit closer, not that I will be around for it.

To summarize:

I REALLY don’t like the concept of having a higher power having some kind of control over me. Its just creepy! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I am master of my own destiny.

And finally, god is just a something we made up to quell our collective fears of death. Thats what it is. Here we are, stuck on a planet, one of billions upon billions... insignificant.

No I do not think we are created in gods image, rather we created him in ours.

Just my IMO <----

I also think that any way a person can find harmony and contentment in their life, well thats great. Just keep religion 100 feet from science/government at all times, and I'm cool wit that

Secularism is the way of the future.

[ 01-23-2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: esquire ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by esquire: Hmm Ok just to keep this thread on topic, still about being atheist isn’t it? J I’ll tell ya my theory of reality in a nutshell. First of all I don’t believe in a god or gods or that they have any kind of domain over my existence. I dunno, I suppose when it really comes down to it I can’t prove that a god doesn’t exist any more than someone can prove that he/she or it does, it really is a matter of perspective…to an extent. I believe that I can trust my perception and that there are laws of science we can depend on to define, describe, and manipulate our reality. How do I come to this position? Easy! We get results with being empirical. For instance, pray as much as you like, but you won’t invent an atomic bomb like magic. You can build one by understanding how atoms work however. Ah, but then what about divine inspriation you ask?... eh, I call that imagination.

Ahhhhhh...but what about Divine Intervention. I have personally seen prayers succeed where science and technology failed. I've told the story before, but the short version is that I faced a life-threatening condition 6yrs ago. I suffered massive internal injury and - through a series of events - had to wait more than 30 hours before corrective surgery could be performed. After the surgery, the doctor asked my wife and mother if they believed in miracles. They replied that they did and he said "That's good - because a miracle is the only thing that will save him now. I've done what I could, but it simply wasn't enough to repair the damage that's been done. I don't expect him to survive past the next 72 hours."

My mom returned to the waiting room in tears and asked everyone there to pray with her for my safety. Total strangers joined hands with my mom and asked God to spare me. I later learned that over 100 people from my hometown were also praying for a miracle on my behalf. However, I was completely unaware of any of this - so my recovery cannot be attributed to "positive thinking".

The bottom line is that our advanced medical technology was not sufficient to save me. Only God's Grace was able to do that.

Originally posted by esquire: To summarize: I REALLY don’t like the concept of having a higher power having some kind of control over me. Its just creepy! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I find it comforting rather than creepy. {see above example}

Originally posted by esquire: I am master of my own destiny.

That's true. We are created with free will. Each of us has the freedom to choose whether we will believe or disbelieve in God, Buddha, Allah, Vishnu, or none of the above. We also have the freedom to take any action or follow any course that we deem best for us. All of our decisions, actions, and choices are our own to make.

Originally posted by esquire: And finally, god is just a something we made up to quell our collective fears of death. Thats what it is. Here we are, stuck on a planet, one of billions upon billions... insignificant.

I disagree. Although I'm in no hurry to die, I do not fear death. I have a personal relationship with God that is real - not imaginary, hallucinatory, or chemically induced. I have heard His voice in direct answer to prayers and I have seen His hand intervene in my times of need. This is not just "wishful thinking" - I have gone to God in prayer over different circumstances and seen real, empirical results occur from those prayers.

We are stuck on this planet, but we are not insignificant - at least not to God.

Originally posted by esquire: I also think that any way a person can find harmony and contentment in their life, well thats great. Just keep religion 100 feet from science/government at all times, and I'm cool wit that

I agree. Although I don't feel that science and God are mutually exclusive. I believe God designed our world and the universe to operate in an orderly and precise manner. He then gave Man the ability to "discover" these "orderly patterns" for ourselves so that we could better understand how our world works.

Religion in gov't is a horse of a different color. I respect gov't leaders and officials who have strong moral values and convictions....but I would NOT want to see Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell in the Oval Office.

I believe in freedom of choice and I respect every person's decision to accept or reject religion as they see fit. If you have found harmony and contentment in your choice, I am happy for you. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Callum Kerr]

Originally posted by Yorick: The Bible has been around and relevent for 2000 years. Parts of it for 4000 years.

Wasn't the Bible written in about 800 AD or something?

I don't think it was written in the time that everything actually happened...

And THAT's what makes me sceptical - in the hundreds or thousands of years between the story told in the Bible and the time it was written down, a lot could have been lost... Exagerration, misunderstanding... try playing chinese whispers for a couple of centuries and see...

[Masklinn]

Wow...
I can't believe I started all this with my Squirrel example !

I just want to come back on one little point :

Chimps do not have sex purely for pleasure.

This is false. They do. Bonobos (another species of big ape) do that even more. They even do bl*wj*bs (that can be ONLY for pleasure) !

Though, concerning the Squirrel point, there was the original point :

Before assuming what happens when a human being dies, did ou guys ever take a guess about what does happen when a squirrel dies ?

And this is a real question !

What does happen to this tiny cute little life that suddenly stops ?

--==* What does happen when a Squirrel dies ? *==--

If we can clearly answer that, we will make a huge step in the understanding of the meaning of life.

[Callum Kerr]

Oh, I meant to say this before... I think that if a creature has the capability for intelligent thought and/or the ability to distinguish between wrong/right (or good/evil), then that creature has a soul...

[Moiraine]

[quote]Originally posted by Leonis:

... But science is constantly changing it's position on this ...

Maybe, and why not ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have seen posted lots of things about the 'scientific attitude'. I am the daughter of a scientific researcher, I have had a high-level scientific education, and to me, the main aspect of the right scientific attitude is to stay humble and open-minded at all times.

IMO, the scientific quest for knowledge goes like this : you have to complete a puzzle, of which you only have some pieces. So you make a hypothesis that fit with all the pieces you have in hand FOR NOW. BUT, when a new piece is found, you have to check if it still fits with the hypothesis. If it fits, then the hypothesis is still valid (and I don't mean it is The Truth, but it is a likely picture, and it is usable). If not, then you HAVE to make a new hypothesis where all pieces fit. And the new one will be closer to The Truth - but not The Truth itself ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Scientific know many many centuries will pass before we have all the pieces, if it ever happens. Does this mean they should not try to interpret the pieces they have in hands, but only keep on collecting facts until all the pieces are here ? Now that would be a waste of intellingence, wouldn't it ?

About human evolution. The facts are the numerous bones and stone tools and holes in the earth, collected over the years. The current evolution trees proposed by the scientists are just propositions. BUT these hypothesis include all the facts currently available. And many scientific disciplins have been put to contribution, to establish these trees : paleontology, anthopology, geology, statistics, genetics, sociology, ... Is that wise to discount all that intelligence ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

ABout God. I am an agnostic rather than an atheist. I didn't yet encounter any evidence that would convince me that He exists. My current hypothesis is that He doesn't. But I keep an open mind. If a new fact came up, I am perfectly ready to change my mind. [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW Leonis, 95 % of shared genes still makes us closer DNA-cousins to Chimpanzees than to bananas !

[Masklinn]

--==* What does happen when a Squirrel dies ? *==--

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Masklinn: --==* What does happen when a Squirrel dies ? *==--

Doesn't his Squirrel God take him to the heaven of squirrels ?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Masklinn: --==* What does happen when a Squirrel dies ? *==--

On the campus where I went to college, it usually meant the power would go out in the dorm - at least for a brief period. That's because the squirrels there did not commit suicide by jumping on sharpened acorns - they did it by jumping onto transformer boxes.

But for the more serious aspect of your question, when a squirrel dies - it dies. End of story. God did not create the animals in His image. In fact, Genesis clearly states that He made all the animals, yet still felt something was "missing". That's when he decided to make a creation in His own image.

Unlike all the other creatures of the Earth, he gave Man a soul, so that Man would understand and realize who God was and would seek a relationship with Him. This is an attribute that NO other creature shares.

Moraine - As for the Theory of Evolution, I have no problem with the concept that man has evolved over the centuries. There is obvious proof that evolution has played a role in the Development of man. However, there is still NO conclusive proof that Evolution is responsible for the Creation of Man.

Chimpanzees may be very similar to humans, but science has yet to produce an irrefutable example of the "common ancestor" we supposedly share. The Missing Link has not yet been found (and universally accepted). I - for one - don't think it ever will be found....because I don't believe it exists. Still, that doesn't mean that scientists shouldn't keep looking. The more we learn and understand about ourselves and our world - the better our quality of life becomes (as a general rule ).