People overreacting on Twin Tower?

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by MagiK: Ya know it never fails to amaze me that it always people who were born into, raised and educated in the west who see it as such a failure and horrible culture. THese people who would be shot and killed, imprisioned and/or tortured just for having said even half of what they post here if theyr were in these so so superior middle eastern and eastern countries....If the west sucks so badly why not emigrate to Syria or Iran? Im sure they would be glad to have anyone who wanted to go there. Just wondering of course. Anyone have a decent answer?

You offer a false choice -- that we must either believe the West is awful,terrible, evil, or that it is perfect and never does anything wrong or cannot be improved.

Sorry, the truth lies in between.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: You offer a false choice -- that we must either believe the West is awful,terrible, evil, or that it is perfect and never does anything wrong or cannot be improved. Sorry, the truth lies in between.

Quite. For example, I love living in the UK! However, that's not to say I can't see its many faults. It doesn't make me blind to its past colonial history, either.

Just because something is better than something else, we don't have to be blind to its flaws. Democracy allows us to negotiate, campaign, agitate, scream our heads off (whatever it takes, except violence) to get a better world.

Given that we have that freedom, I for one intend to continue to use it to its fullest extent.




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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Good lord, MagiK. Read some history, do. (Preferably history not written by the victors, which has a tendency to miss the odd important, but crucial point). I didn't want to quote the whole thing (nicely written by the way)

I agree with many of your points, but want to say a few things, 1. I have a very very good grasp of history, especialy recent history say since 1931 or so.
I know from first hand some of that history and while it is true we helpped create some of those terrorist states, you are over simplifying the whole issue by ignoring the reason those states were supported. You fail to take into context the facts that nesecitated the supply of arms to that region of the world. It wasn't all done out fo greed. I understand that you are young, I don't expect you to really have a good grasp of the geopolitical pressures that formed the middle east into what it is today. Heck I lived through a lot of it and I don't understand some of it either.

The main thing I want to point out is about the "why people are evil" thing. Asked about an evil gene. Clearly you have never actually encountered in person one of these types of people. Yeah there may be some genetic thing involved but Genes do not a social being make, there is no known reason why a perfectly normal kid will turn to torturing animals, move on to young children then finaly to mass murder. It is easyest to just call them sick twisted people. There are no known ways to "cure" these people with kindness and love. They simply lack whatever it is that makes normal people civil creatures. Personally I think it is just some kind of brain defect. But having looked this kind of person eye to eye on a couple of occasions I can truely state that they are not really human in any conventional sense. It is a very very scary and horrifying thing to see that kind of twisted maliciousness I hope you never come face to face with the like sof them, history is replete with them though so study YOUR history. Hitler, Stalin, Jim Jones, Jeffry Dahmer and on and on and on the list goes.

Finally in closing. I know where the arms in the east came from, but the west selling them guns didn't start the barbarism there, it existed before there was a civilised west. The flower of civilisation started in the middle east or so Im told, and they never advanced. Instead it degenerated into the savageness that we see today. Israel occupying this or that bank of a river has nothing to do with wether it is ok to suicide bomb a bunch of civilians. Why did Israel move to the west bank?? hmmm can you say Attacks from Syria and Egypt?? maybe they didn't feel safe letting their neighbors get too close...maybe we shouldnt just oversimplify. (none of this is ment to hurt feeling or point the blame, it is all just to provoke some thought, the younger you are the easier it is to be idealistic and simplistic)



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: You want to know how to defuse terrorism? Try carpet bombing countries such as Afghanistan with food and medicine. Follow that up with doctors and teachers.... and so on. Right now, they live in misery, and their leaders tell them constantly that it's all the West's fault. Constructive action speaks louder than rhetoric about democracy. Why don't we show them different?

Actually we tried that in northern Iraq, tried to suppy the Kurds with aid, unfortunately we had to stop as the casualty rate from people being killed when the supplies landed on them was unacceptably high. (not a joke)


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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Last but not least, I'd like to say that I find your view of human beings dispiriting in the extreme. This idea that ALL life is predatory and out for itself. I think it's crap, if you'll excuse the term.

First off you took this out of context (on purpose? it was written in humor)
Secondly sorry if it hurts your feelings but LIFE is predatory study your biology, Zoology and all the rest of the natural sciences.

Secondly I base my comments on humans from 40 years of personal observation and experience. Experience gathered from 25 states in the USA, The Philipine Islands, Several South American Countries that I was never told which one I was in, Various places in europe, and lastly From the middle east again several countries that I was never sure which place I was. So yeah I think Ive seen a fair cross section.



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Originally posted by MagiK: ...the younger you are the easier it is to be idealistic and simplistic [/B]

And let me be the first to congratulate you on carrying those traits into your middle years.

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Many terrorists might agree with you, since you have just described US and other Western airmen. In the military, it is referred to by the euphemism "collateral damage." Shall we conclude that all such airmen are rabid dogs who should be wiped off the face of the earth, or that they are just "born evil"? Magick, there is no need to imagine "evil" men in the Middle east to account for the hostility and hatred that some hold for the US and the West. Even if they were the best of men to begin with, we have given them reason after reason to declare us the great enemy. Please do read up on the history of the area. From the point of view of the west, it has been since World War I a vast oil reserve that we have sought to keep under our control through any means necessary, including military force and shameful activities of the CIA-- for example the propping up of the last Shah of Iran and his murderous regime, which was the direct cause of popular Iranian hatred of the US and the storming of the US embassy during the popular uprising which swept the Shah from power. US -- Iranian relations are still strained, over 20 years later, because of it. As Silver Cheetah says, the real, long term answer to stopping terrorism lies in treating people fairly to begin with. [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-18-2001).] [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-18-2001).]

I would agree with you if said airmen didn't do everything in their power to avoid causing unnesecary casulaties, I would agree if I didn't know of pilots who gave their own life to save a few innocent civilians, I would agree IF you had any idea what you were talking about. Your post wasnt a serious commentary it was strictly set out as bait. Nice try.


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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: You offer a false choice -- that we must either believe the West is awful,terrible, evil, or that it is perfect and never does anything wrong or cannot be improved. Sorry, the truth lies in between.

I do not believe you can find a single instance where I ever alluded to the fact that the west was perfect. What you will find is me stating in several ways that the west is the best that mankind has produced so far and has been the cause for the biggest steps forward in the area of human rights and the civil treatment of our fellow man.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by MagiK:

Secondly I base my comments on humans from 40 years of personal observation and experience. Experience gathered from 25 states in the USA, The Philipine Islands, Several South American Countries that I was never told which one I was in, Various places in europe, and lastly From the middle east again several countries that I was never sure which place I was. So yeah I think Ive seen a fair cross section.

[/B][/QUOTE]

So from this, you want us to believe that your personal observation started at birth? Absolutely fascinating...


[This message has been edited by Absynthe (edited 09-18-2001).]

Originally posted by Absynthe: And let me be the first to congratulate you on carrying those traits into your middle years.

Sadly Im neither. I wish I could be. Actually to tell the truth Im jaded, cynical and woefully saddend at the types of children being pumped out of the revisionist history classes.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.