either you're with us or with the terrorists....

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by tracey: right. punishment. not an attempt to bring the wrongdoers to justice? just a general lashing/smacking situation. okay. just so long as we all know where we stand. hey, i know. why don't we have pre-emptive smacks - just in case something bad happens.

If you want to do pre-emptive strikes I guess that's up to you.



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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[tracey]

oh, dear. i think someone's missed the point.

Originally posted by tracey: woah there, proud beauties! there seems to be an awful lot of disgust for those of us who see a humanitarian disater looming. i for one, would never, ever, lend my support to any action that sees thousands or even one death or maiming occur for a simple act of revenge. there is no answer to terrorism. the best any of us can hope for is that those who are guilty of murdering the unfortunate people in the states will be found and tried in a court of law. anything else that happens is also murder. several of you may disagree with this viewpoint - possibly understandably as your blood is pounding and the need to fight back and not feel powerless is overwhelming, however, do you really care so little for human life that you would sanction the governments of the world to destroy the lives of innocents? in london a couple of years' ago, we had a huge bomb explode in the square mile - financial quater, planted by the ira (again!) if england had chosen to react by sending tanks and bombs into northern ireland, can you imagine what the reaction of the rest of the world would have been - yet, there are many in northern ireland who shelter and finance the ira on a regular basis. what do we do about the situation? negotiation and and the continued attempts at peace talks. this may sound like very little when ira terrorists have killed thousands over the years', however, there is no real alternative unless we were happy to go in all guns blazing and kill hundrends of people who had nothing whatever to do with it. they just happen to live there. rather like the afgans who just happen to live in afganistan.

You sum it up so nice, words well written and recieved! The half-logic that military action will amount to real justice can only be countered by thoughts of such sweet clarity. I salute you.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by tracey: woah there, proud beauties! there seems to be an awful lot of disgust for those of us who see a humanitarian disater looming. i for one, would never, ever, lend my support to any action that sees thousands or even one death or maiming occur for a simple act of revenge. there is no answer to terrorism. the best any of us can hope for is that those who are guilty of murdering the unfortunate people in the states will be found and tried in a court of law. anything else that happens is also murder. several of you may disagree with this viewpoint - possibly understandably as your blood is pounding and the need to fight back and not feel powerless is overwhelming, however, do you really care so little for human life that you would sanction the governments of the world to destroy the lives of innocents? in london a couple of years' ago, we had a huge bomb explode in the square mile - financial quater, planted by the ira (again!) if england had chosen to react by sending tanks and bombs into northern ireland, can you imagine what the reaction of the rest of the world would have been - yet, there are many in northern ireland who shelter and finance the ira on a regular basis. what do we do about the situation? negotiation and and the continued attempts at peace talks. this may sound like very little when ira terrorists have killed thousands over the years', however, there is no real alternative unless we were happy to go in all guns blazing and kill hundrends of people who had nothing whatever to do with it. they just happen to live there. rather like the afgans who just happen to live in afganistan.

Tracey you are comparing chalk and cheese. First of all the government of Northern Ireland, where the tanks would "roll in" is British. It's like America rolling tanks into Iowa because Muslim terrorists are there. It wouldn't happen.

Bush mentioned cutting funding. I'd assume measures similar to the USA banning of funding for the real IRA in America would be along those lines.

You are deluded if you think legal processes will make any difference on a government that holds western laws in contempt, and cares nothing for what the outside world does or thinks of them.

I'm not advocating violence, but you are advocating inaction. If another 6,500 civilians are killed (or worse) will that be enough to seek prevention? This type of attack is not able to be defended against. Prevention is the key, and it is prevention - under the guise of "justified retaliation" for world eyes - which is being enacted here.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Istaron: And why can't you be neutral in this? Switzerland has always been neutral, and Sweden is considered that too, more or less. You ARE for democratic goverments huh? Well, then let people think and beleive in what they want to without judging them.

Yeah right. Swiss banks held Nazi money. Norwegians may tell you (as they told me personally) that the Swedes weren't exactly neutral in matters (albeit to avoid invasion) and handed over Norwegian dissidents etc.

I noticed you didn't mention Holland, Belgium, Norway and Denmark. All four declared Neutrality as in WWI and were invaded and occupied.

Sometimes the choice gets made for you Istaron.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Originally posted by Yorick: Tracey you are comparing chalk and cheese. First of all the government of Northern Ireland, where the tanks would "roll in" is British. It's like America rolling tanks into Iowa because Muslim terrorists are there. It wouldn't happen. Bush mentioned cutting funding. I'd assume measures similar to the USA banning of funding for the real IRA in America would be along those lines. You are deluded if you think legal processes will make any difference on a government that holds western laws in contempt, and cares nothing for what the outside world does or thinks of them. I'm not advocating violence, but you are advocating inaction. If another 6,500 civilians are killed (or worse) will that be enough to seek prevention? This type of attack is not able to be defended against. Prevention is the key, and it is prevention - under the guise of "justified retaliation" for world eyes - which is being enacted here.

How is negoiating, and seeking a reasonable, non-warlike path to justice inaction? Did Martin Luther King Jr. Practice inaction?
Does the Dali Lama Practice Inaction. What about Gandi? Who cares if the terrorist are from Iowa or afganistan, To say that violence on a war-like scale is the only response, you deny the practices of great people who have changed the mindscape of the world iwthout any " justifiable retaliation" or any violence for that matter. Some have gotten justice, to a degree, others like the Dali Lama still wait. I see alternative actions, not inaction.
Prevention of the sort being implimented probably wont work. The probability of it causing more problems is higher.


[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-23-2001).]

We canadians keep the peace; you guys MAKE the peace.....

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All your base are belong to us! How Are you gentlemen?


Co-owner of The Abyssal Pit
The Spaminyte Emperor
Official Demon/Villain of IW!
***********************
Fish? Welcome to your Doom!
**********************

[Liliara]

Gwhanos, you really crack me up sometimes! LOL

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Thank you sweet Liliara.....

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All your base are belong to us! How Are you gentlemen?


Co-owner of The Abyssal Pit
The Spaminyte Emperor
Official Demon/Villain of IW!
***********************
Fish? Welcome to your Doom!
**********************

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: How is negoiating, and seeking a reasonable, non-warlike path to justice inaction? Did Martin Luther King Jr. Practice inaction? Does the Dali Lama Practice Inaction. What about Gandi? Who cares if the terrorist are from Iowa or afganistan, To say that violence on a war-like scale is the only response, you deny the practices of great people who have changed the mindscape of the world iwthout any " justifiable retaliation" or any violence for that matter. Some have gotten justice, to a degree, others like the Dali Lama still wait. I see alternative actions, not inaction. Prevention of the sort being implimented probably wont work. The probability of it causing more problems is higher. 09-23-2001).]

WTF!!?? Did I say violent action was the only action? NO! I said Tracey's proposal was unworkable. I said that the British sending tanks into N.I. would be like America sending tanks into Iowa. It wouldn't happen.

Here's something. Do you know why Nelson Mandela was jailed for all that time? Largely because he wouldn't renounce violent action against the government. (Well that was the official reason.)

I respect Mandela immensely, don't get me wrong. He has healed many wounds in his land, and acted with much grace, forgiveness and compassion. However, I'm trying to point out that sometimes as humans we make the choice between the lesser of two evils. I'm a Christian. I have to do my best to turn the other cheek, to remove the cycle of hate and agression. I do not advocate violence.

However the government has a responsiblitity to provide protection for it's people. Something must be done to prevent this.

We have had a WTC bombing attempt in '93 that failed. Emabassy bombings, a ship bombed. Each time the Taliban refused to give up Bin Laden. Now 6,500 people are DEAD. The largest city in thee country has been gutted. It may not end there. What do you propose? Diplomacy has failed thus far. It hasn't worked. I pray it does. I pray the Taliban find it in their hearts to hand the guy over, but every precendent screams that they won't.

What do you do?


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-23-2001).]