Bards as spell casters

InsaneBane · 11-26-2002, 04:36 AM

Hi

Never had a Bard in my party, but I might try one in my next game. My question is:

In the AD&D rules a bard of a certain level casts spells with the same caster level as a mage of the same level. In other words: a level 9 bard is casting a fireball at caster level 9.

The progress of XP levels is much faster for a bard (rogue) than for a mage, so eventhough the bard does not have as many spells as a mage, you can argue that you get more hit power each round when using a bard than if you use a mage considering that the 2 characters has the same amount of XP points.

This of course only goes for the spells, where the caster level is considered (magic missile, fire ball, lightning bolt etc.) and is only relevant for low level characters as in BG (spell casters that haven't reached the cap for caster levels with their spells: Ex. I guess the max. for fireball is 10d6).

I know this is not an issue for true role players (only power freaks) but am I right or wrong in my arguments? And had anyone experience with a 'hard hitting' spell caster bard?

Insane

Grungi · 11-26-2002, 06:57 AM

it sounds good on paper but theres a flaw somewhere, i cant remember where but bards arent as good as mages at remembering spells or something or cant have as many spells, someat like that

andrewas · 11-26-2002, 08:09 AM

Bards get less spells. They will get high-level magic missile and such, but the fact is that they simply cannot compete with a mage of equal XP.

BG1 does not allow the spell and counterspell dynamic of BG2's high level magic, but a mage will still be able to completely dominate the bard in terms of damage/round - unless the bard can disrupt the mages casting enough, which isnt likely since MM has a cast time of 1 - almost impossible to disrupt. A MM duel will end in death for the bard, since he will run out, and if the bard switches to higher level spells he will start to be disrupted more and more as the casting time increases.

A higher level spell duel will still end in the mages favour, as he has more slots and therefore more choice in what to cast.

Thats assuming magic only, a bard mixing magic and bow fire might well be able to take the mage, although I still think MM will decide the matter in a terminal fashion.

Grungi · 11-26-2002, 11:23 AM

what he said [img]smile.gif[/img]

i knew there was a reason a straight mage is better otherwise would be no point having a mage class, bards would rule the mana [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Midget Gems · 11-27-2002, 01:58 AM

Maybe if you introduced Mirror Image into the dual then a Bard might just win a special head-to-head dual, at say level 4/5. If there is a point on the learning curve where the Bard has an extra Image and an extra MM, plus a few more HP, then it could happen. Otherwise the Bard has too few spells and should really stick to bows and wands to do his damage.

Grungi · 11-27-2002, 05:40 AM

to be honest the bard should stick to writing songs, poems and tales about the people hes following around and not get involved in the fighting at all, he should be singing the praises of the party and watching from the sidelines, bards, bah!

D*Ranged · 11-27-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grungi:
to be honest the bard should stick to writing songs, poems and tales about the people hes following around and not get involved in the fighting at all, he should be singing the praises of the party and watching from the sidelines, bards, bah!

Yah, but then what's the point of abilities to cast spell? Pick pocket? or even getting 1 point in ALL proficiencies?

D*Ranged · 11-27-2002, 05:33 PM

AND will others tolerate some fool who doesn't help but just write songs and watch from sidelines, hmm?

Grungi · 11-28-2002, 10:34 AM

course they will d'ranged otherwise noone would know of their epic adventures, remember in the times depicted bards = media they are tv and everything rolled into one so their knowledge is what people want them for not their fighting abilities, and their annoying songs to keep spirits up i spose [img]tongue.gif[/img] personally id stick a dagger through his throat if he started singing whilst i was fighting, damn bards [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Midget Gems · 11-29-2002, 04:29 PM

A Bard who stands at the back singing the same song over and over - yup, been there, done that, and written the ballad about it !

11-26-2002, 04:36 AM	#1
InsaneBane Baaz Draconian Join Date: November 5, 2002 Location: Denmark Age: 57 Posts: 724	Hi Never had a Bard in my party, but I might try one in my next game. My question is: In the AD&D rules a bard of a certain level casts spells with the same caster level as a mage of the same level. In other words: a level 9 bard is casting a fireball at caster level 9. The progress of XP levels is much faster for a bard (rogue) than for a mage, so eventhough the bard does not have as many spells as a mage, you can argue that you get more hit power each round when using a bard than if you use a mage considering that the 2 characters has the same amount of XP points. This of course only goes for the spells, where the caster level is considered (magic missile, fire ball, lightning bolt etc.) and is only relevant for low level characters as in BG (spell casters that haven't reached the cap for caster levels with their spells: Ex. I guess the max. for fireball is 10d6). I know this is not an issue for true role players (only power freaks) but am I right or wrong in my arguments? And had anyone experience with a 'hard hitting' spell caster bard? Insane __________________ Ko-founder of the SCFC(TM) Korporation.

11-26-2002, 08:09 AM	#3
andrewas Harper Join Date: October 2, 2001 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland Age: 42 Posts: 4,774	Bards get less spells. They will get high-level magic missile and such, but the fact is that they simply cannot compete with a mage of equal XP. BG1 does not allow the spell and counterspell dynamic of BG2's high level magic, but a mage will still be able to completely dominate the bard in terms of damage/round - unless the bard can disrupt the mages casting enough, which isnt likely since MM has a cast time of 1 - almost impossible to disrupt. A MM duel will end in death for the bard, since he will run out, and if the bard switches to higher level spells he will start to be disrupted more and more as the casting time increases. A higher level spell duel will still end in the mages favour, as he has more slots and therefore more choice in what to cast. Thats assuming magic only, a bard mixing magic and bow fire might well be able to take the mage, although I still think MM will decide the matter in a terminal fashion. __________________ [img]\"http://www.sighost.us/members/Zvijer/andrewas.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-27-2002, 01:58 AM	#5
Midget Gems Avatar Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 33 Posts: 568	Maybe if you introduced Mirror Image into the dual then a Bard might just win a special head-to-head dual, at say level 4/5. If there is a point on the learning curve where the Bard has an extra Image and an extra MM, plus a few more HP, then it could happen. Otherwise the Bard has too few spells and should really stick to bows and wands to do his damage. __________________ Midget Gems - Heroes in their own lunch time and creator of the Suicidal Gnomes.

11-27-2002, 05:33 PM	#8
D*Ranged Avatar Join Date: January 4, 2002 Location: Wellington ,NZ (I revealed it to people now...) Age: 41 Posts: 585	AND will others tolerate some fool who doesn't help but just write songs and watch from sidelines, hmm? __________________ YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN...........

11-29-2002, 04:29 PM	#10
Midget Gems Avatar Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 33 Posts: 568	A Bard who stands at the back singing the same song over and over - yup, been there, done that, and written the ballad about it ! __________________ Midget Gems - Heroes in their own lunch time and creator of the Suicidal Gnomes.

11-26-2002, 06:57 AM	#2
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	it sounds good on paper but theres a flaw somewhere, i cant remember where but bards arent as good as mages at remembering spells or something or cant have as many spells, someat like that

11-26-2002, 11:23 AM	#4
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	what he said [img]smile.gif[/img] i knew there was a reason a straight mage is better otherwise would be no point having a mage class, bards would rule the mana [img]tongue.gif[/img]

11-27-2002, 05:40 AM	#6
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	to be honest the bard should stick to writing songs, poems and tales about the people hes following around and not get involved in the fighting at all, he should be singing the praises of the party and watching from the sidelines, bards, bah!

11-28-2002, 10:34 AM	#9
Grungi Banned User Join Date: September 4, 2002 Location: no Age: 46 Posts: 1,446	course they will d'ranged otherwise noone would know of their epic adventures, remember in the times depicted bards = media they are tv and everything rolled into one so their knowledge is what people want them for not their fighting abilities, and their annoying songs to keep spirits up i spose [img]tongue.gif[/img] personally id stick a dagger through his throat if he started singing whilst i was fighting, damn bards [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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