Open Locks & Find/Remove Traps

[ister]

Yes. A DC T-F can go all the way to grand mastery. In that sense it's a very nice build. However, you lose out on exceptional strength (18 is much inferior to 18/78 or whatever) and you lose out on a lot of hit points. Still, can be a very useful character.

[krunchyfrogg]

The loss of exceptional strength and a lot of hitpoints does stink, but if the fighter is built as primarily an archer, it really won't matter too much.

[Aerich]

There are strength items in the latter portions of the game - Gauntlets of Ogre Strength (Str 18/00) and the Girdle of Stromnos (Str 19). Losing the exceptional strength isn't nearly as bad as losing all the HP - not only do you have base 1-6 instead of base 1-10, you lose the warrior-only Con bonus. An 18 Con thief only gets +2 HP/lvl instead of +4, and the Con bonus ends at lvl 9.

If you just want an archer, the mc build is better than the dc T/F; you only lose out on one bow PP, as the max is three, but gain a significant boost in HP. Even if you do have GM in a melee weapon, the reduced HP means it is risky to use that offensive power.

To my mind, the greatest value of a fighter/thief is as a trap-finder and disabler on DE lvl 5, as well as general scout and archer. Having gone through that area once without a thief, I'll say I never want to do it again, from a party management and pure frustration perspective.

[ister]

I'm not so sure. The T-F will have much better THAC0, and the hitpoint differential isn't as bad as you suggest.

For the DC you get:
8 hp to start
1-6 + 2 for levels 2-7
1-10 + 4 for levels 8 and 9.

Average of 60 at level 9

The F/T gets
11 hp to start
1-8 + 3 for levels 2-9 ((1-6)+(1-10)+ 2 + 4)/2)

Average of 71 at level 9/9.

11 hp isn't anything to scoff at, but the wolf talisman gives you almost as much, and no-one thinks that is the best item in the game.

If you're building an archer the T[7]-F has a lot of advantages. The extra proficiency point does do +1 damage per hit, and by level 13 you'll have 3.5 attacks per round with your bow, so an extra point of damage per hit doesn't hurt. The GM in melee weapons means the F-T has a much better chance of carving up anyone he happens to meet in melee - although his staying power is much worse.

However I'll take the MC because it's a better backstabber, and the exceptional strength is better until you reach GM in the melee weapon.

[Aerich]

Perhaps some of my antipathy is due to my bias toward spell usage. I don't often dual, and even more rarely dual into a non-spellcasting class. My fighter/thief is around only for archery and the skills. He doesn't need to be a bang-up fighter, just good enough to hold his own and act as a third or fourth melee option every so often.

As I noted in the multiclasses thread, a F/T combo doesn't make for a durable tank. I must rate durability and versatility higher than damage output.

[ 10-04-2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]