So you want to design weapons/armor in the toolset?

[robertthebard]

A tutorial, of sorts:

Ok, first things first. When designing class specific stuff, you may want to consider what kinds of feats the class gets for free. For example; applying the combat feat knockdown on monk gloves. All this does is add to the overall value of the item, which means that, a; it can be sold for more, and b; it is harder to identify. It has no intrinsic value to a monk beyond that. Monks get both Knockdown, and Improved Knockdown relatively early, so by the time they could get to where-ever they can find it, chances are they will already have the feats.

"But I don't want any other class to be able to use them". Hear this a lot. What difference does it make? If a rogue is using monk gloves, they aren't able to cash in on the attack bonuses on said gloves, if any, since those bonuses only apply to unarmed attacks. Stat bonuses will apply, such as dex, or wis, but even an armor bonus is wasted, depending on what it is, if said rogue is wearing armor. Which brings me to my second point:

Know your bonuses, and what will stack, and what won't.

Classic example: a weapon with an attack bonus of +5, but a + 6 enhancement. The enhancement bonus, being higher, will negate the attack bonus. Attack bonus adds specifically to attack, but enhancement adds to attack and damage.
To keep the above weapon as a plus five, we can do one of two things;
1) Set the enhancement bonus to + 5, and remove the attack bonus, or;
2) Leave the attack bonus, and lower the enhancement bonus to +4.
That will add the additional +4 damage, but leave the weapon at +5 to the AB, since it's higher than the enhancement bonus. The highest AB bonus allowed by the engine is +20, whether it is achieved through attack bonus, or enhancement.

The same philosophy applies to armor bonuses, and types of bonuses. Just like with AB, the engine will default to the highest AC bonus. There are five armor types;
Deflection; which is derived from rings, helmets, and cloaks.
Armor; which is derived from armor, bracers/gauntlets, and belts.
Dodge; which comes from boots.
Natural; which comes from amulets, and
Shield; which comes from having a shield equipped.

While all five will stack with each other, no modifier will stack with itself, so a +5 ring, and a +5 cloak will only give a +5 bonus, while a +5 ring, and a +6 cloak will result in a +6 bonus, since the cloak bonus will be higher. This applies as much to equipping a char as it does to building a "set" of stuff for a char to use. While maxing out the armor bonus on all items the char possesses looks like a good idea on paper, some of those bonuses will be wasted, since they won't stack. Again, this adds to the overall value of the items, but in the long run doesn't accomplish much more than that. The highest allowed by the engine armor bonus of any single type is +20.

Adding stat bonuses:

The maximum stat bonus, ie; str, dex etc. is 12. Putting +12 dex on every item a char possesses is wasted, since the engine will take the first +12, and that's all you can add. I've looked at a few "set" items with multiple +12 of the same stat, why? All it does is add to the value of the item, which is ok, if you want to make some quick gold, but doesn't help the char ID the item if they have a lower lore skill.

Making items "uber class specific" is, depending on the type of item, really a waste. A UMD score of 25 will allow a rogue to reap the benefits of a Holy Avenger, no matter what other stuff is on it. Piling enough extra stuff on the item to block the rogue from using it just takes away from game balance, either financially, which is largely not a concern, or in power of weapons. All it really is is trying to take away one of the aspects of rogue that makes a rogue worth playing. I have played in PW's where a bard couldn't cast a scroll that was specifically written for bards to use, at the level the bard was at, in an attempt to "balance" the game. The very first time I ran into that, I logged out, and haven't been back.

Anyway, these are all things to consider when building stuff in the toolset. One note about skills. You can boost skills to 50 in the toolset. The question here is, do you really want to? As you can see, you can build a "set" of items in the toolset that would make a char nigh impossible to hit, and would let a lvl 1 char fight at lvl 20+. Is this really what you are looking for? I didn't speak on adding different damage types specifically because they are easy and will all stack, at least each single element, or regular damage type; piercing, slashing, etc.

I hope you find this somewhat informative.

[Greything]

Thanks for this post.

It sets things out very clearly.

There is still one question I would like to ask. There are quite a few inhabitants of Undermountain who, even if I have an AB of 70+, I cannot hit without rolling a 20.

Does this mean that they have an AC 0f 90+ or higher or is this something that can be built into the NPC?

In other words, does it do any of us any good to try for higher and higher ABs in an effort to hit these guys more often; or would we be better off looking at other aspects of our builds and relying on the odd crit or dev crit hit to see us through?

[robertthebard]

In a word, yes. To both scenarios, actually. NPC's can be built with one set of armor that they use, with another set in their inventory that they drop. Assuming they drop anything at all. Assuming a straight 70 AB, if you're only hitting on a 20, then the target AC is 90 plus. The hit/miss calculations in 3rd Edition higher are easier than in all prior versions, where AC was calculated backwards, ie, where 0 was a good ac, instead of the cannon fodder it is now. With the 70 AB, a char would hit an 85 AC with a 15 or better. Char AB + Die Roll = x vs opponents AC. If x is = or > than opponent AC, it's a hit. This is why weapon masters with keen weapons will score so many more critical hits, since they can take some weapons to a 10 for critical hits, such as kukri, off the top of my head. In that case, the above equation would equal a critical hit, if the threat roll equals a hit as well.

Hmm, perhaps I should try to explain the Threat Roll concept as well. In 3rd edition rules, a natural 20 is not an automatic critical. They added what is known as a Critical Threat Roll, and now, you can score critical hits on rolls other than a 20. Basically, you roll your normal to hit roll, if that's a hit, and within the threat range for criticals, say a 19-20 for an archer with improved critical on the bow, then you get another roll, this is your crit roll. If that roll is a hit, then your initial roll is a critical. Pretty easy, if a bit confusing at first. Weapon masters get the big kudos for crits, since as I said earlier, they can bring the threat range of the weapon of choice way down.

[Greything]

Thanks again.

Wonderful. The armour the monsters drop is no clue to their real AC! No wonder I get problems.

What you say seems to confirm that the only way to solo is to go with Str and Dev Crit. Pity about that because I do like Dex based characters. Trouble is that while you can work them up to an AC of around 100 they can't hit hard enough to hurt.

[robertthebard]

I wouldn't say that. I have several varieties of dex based chars that do well, or well enough. The AB has nothing to do with dev crit, after all. DC on dev crit is calculated thusly: 10+1/2 char level+str bonus. While a str based char will have a definite advantage on the dc for dev crit, they still have to actually hit first. Archers with dev crit are successful, but building dex based chars is different from str based, although I'm not sure why. I have the hardest time building effective str based chars, but I have a list of archers with 70+ AB's...

[Unglaublich Verwustung]

I find that is the case with any non-AA char. I have both dex and str based characters who have AB values in the top 60s but even the dex ones can't get into the 70s without being an AA. eg I currently have a Ftr/CoT/WM build done as both dex and str and both have got +68 with entirely different weapons but I just don't seem able to get above that. They both hit consistently, just takes the dexers longer to take out the trash.

Not sure what my point was [img]graemlins/confused2.gif[/img] as I lost the thread half-way through, but I feel it is along the lines that it doesn't matter which way you go, you can get near identical AB at the end from either str or dex as long as you know how you are building from the start, maybe....

*wanders off in a confused state of mind..forgets why is wandering and sits on the ground to contemplate toes for a while...*

[nwnrogue]

Given that I mostly play dexers, I agree. It would be nice to see some finesse weapons with a higher attack bonus (NOT enhancement) since melee dexers really have a hard time hitting anything on the harder EfU levels. Let the strength-based characters be lords and masters of damage, but let the dexers actually hit something.

[nwnrogue]

Also, I see that there's a lot of discussion about wanting to limit items to a specific class. Essentially this comes down to a problem with the game balance in that you can save an arbitrary number of skill points. This means that powergamers WILL take 39 levels of a high AB class followed by 1 level of rogue, assassin or bard (or monk) and drop all their accumulated skill points on UMD (and/or Tumble).

However this negates the value of having more levels of those classes - the value of being a rogue especially lies in the skill they can amass, and is offset by a lower AB. In EfU, where all the bosses' AC is determined by a maximum feasible AB, nothing but a 95% pure fighter is going to be able to hit them.

I think that part of the solution is what I described above: create some items that have exceptional attack, but mediocre damage so that power fighters won't be interested in them. This means that:

- classes in the high BAB range will use high damage (enhancement) weapons
- classes in the medium BAB range will use EITHER high attack, low damage weapons OR scrolls, wands etc
- classes in the low BAB range will always be using spells, scrolls, wands etc

What do people think to this?

[nwnrogue]

To absolutely clarify what I'm talking about, some numbers. I think that these should really be the absolute max and the bosses's AC tailored to what people can hit with them:

+9 scythe
+9 greatsword or dire mace
+10 longsword or battleaxe
+6 rapier or kukri (+12 to hit)
+7 dagger (+15 to hit)
+7 whip (+13 to hit)

Note that this ignores the issue of elemental damage completely - I don't have much to say on this except that there should always be at least some mobs with immunity or reduction to some type of elemental damage, and that a weapon shouldn't deal out more than one type of elemental damage. Also, giving "magical" damage shouldn't be allowed as it really reduces the value of using spells and/or magic items. There should be mobs that you just can't easily damage with weapons! This would help magic using classes to find a role and also mean that you might have to think a bit about how to take down a mob instead of always just beating them to a pulp.

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by Unglaublich Verwustung: I find that is the case with any non-AA char. I have both dex and str based characters who have AB values in the top 60s but even the dex ones can't get into the 70s without being an AA. eg I currently have a Ftr/CoT/WM build done as both dex and str and both have got +68 with entirely different weapons but I just don't seem able to get above that. They both hit consistently, just takes the dexers longer to take out the trash. Not sure what my point was [img]graemlins/confused2.gif[/img] as I lost the thread half-way through, but I feel it is along the lines that it doesn't matter which way you go, you can get near identical AB at the end from either str or dex as long as you know how you are building from the start, maybe.... *wanders off in a confused state of mind..forgets why is wandering and sits on the ground to contemplate toes for a while...*

Dude, get away from the Mac... [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

NWRogue: Undoubtably some people will powergame their builds. Guilty...I too powergame most of my EFU builds, you just about have to. I dusted off one of the archers in my second EFU profile this morning, or late last night, whichever you prefer. She has an AB of 79. I didn't stash a lot of skill points for the build, but it's ranger 9/wizard 1/aa 30. Her final dex; 52. Most of my elven rogues have Epic Dodge at lvl 21 too. The issue isn't about powergaming. Considering the type of server we're in, it's almost a prerequisite. But that's not really the issue with this thread. It's more about a reference for people like Mozenwrathe, who is designing a hell of a lot of stuff for Z to look at, trust me, I've looked at a lot of it.

The idea was; what will stack with what, what's not worth adding, etc. I like to do balanced builds, chars that I can take into any server and do well, whether it's high or low magic, etc. EFU is a high magic world, and the successful chars are high magic oriented. Read that as powergamed. If somebody wants to use this guide for how to equip their chars, it will be equally helpful. Especially the armor section. Like everything else, powergaming has it's place. EFU is one of those places.