Question about Evolution/Creationism etc.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Alexander: Well, belief in Creationism is started by taking the Bible literally - at its word. If it says "God created the world in 6 days", by Jove, he did it in 6 days, not 7 days, and certainly not millions of years. Going by that "logic", if you take the Bible literally (as you would with Creationism), it lists the ages of certain people going all the way back to Adam. Add up the number of years these people lived, and according to the Bible, you should get an accurate age of the Earth. The problem with this is that if you do that, you find that the Earth is about 4-5 thousand years old, give or take a few hundred years. Yet there is a plethora of evidence to indicate that it is much, much older than this (do the words "dinosaur" and "carbon-dating" come to mind?). So, in order to avoid conflicting with known FACTS, one cannot take the Bible totally and absolutely literally. So, then, why should one take it totally and absolutely literally when it says that God created the world in 6 days, etc., etc.?

For starters Alexander, every human culture had/has a creation myth. So you are wrong about Creationism starting with the bible being taken literally.

Doesn't that say something to you? Every culture?

Secondly who cares if it was six days or six epochs? If he can do it at all I don't think it matters if it sprouted up in six minutes. It's still all amazing.

Whether the earth is young or old doesn't matter to creationism, but, as I said, is vital to evolutionism. Carbon dating for starters is flawed. I've heard of minute old dead rats being dated as 2000 years old. Yet we see the old Carbon dating being trotted out as 'proof', why? Because evolution falls down without an old world.

What happens then?

Then we have two scenarios. Uncertainty from ignorance, or the scenario that there is a God.

[/)eathKiller]

Every time that Life reproduces itself and then betters itself that is evolution. it is very gradual, but it is evolution if it is bettering itself through reproduction. This is what makes machines below organisms right now. Machines cannot make themselves better they are only assembly line producers. If we should create a machine that could evoulve... well... it would probably see us as a virus and it'd be like in the Matrix

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Krishach: The odds of some God that spontaneously decided to create Earth and creatures on it, as if by a whim, strikes me as unlikely in the extreme. Possibly because there's no way for people to gain more information on it besides having faith that there is a God there, whereas evolution is backed by scientific evidence that's tangible and shows that evolution probably does occur in the world. In conclusion, to each their own. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. If a one true almighty being does exist, well then, I'll find out when I die I guess. Who's to say we aren't just figments of a dream, that we aren't truly alive? It's possible. Perhaps extremely huge mortal humanoids created us as a play thing, that we are a mere speck in an acutally MUCH bigger world, and the humanoids have forgotten us under their bed. Personally, I don't worry about it, I have many other things to worry about, such as school, my job, my girlfriend, my hobbies. I just sit back and take each day as it comes. Anyway, that's my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

The odds of a creator creating on a whim is unlikely to you?

Are you artistic Krishach? Do you paint, or make music at all?
If you did you would understand that there is often no point to creating. You do it because you can, and because it is an expression of yourself.

Why not the ultimate artist God? He could, and all is an expression of himself.

This is not limited to art. Edmund Hilary is quoted as saying the reason he climbed Mt Everest was "Because it was there".

Why not?

Have you ever simply walked down a path for no other reason than to enjoy it?

At the end of each "day" God sat back and said "it was good". One only has to see the beauty that exists unecessarily to see an artists handiwork. And one of love. Human procreation could be instinctively and hormonally driven as it is with animals. Yet instead we can enjoy the heck out of it. The are parts of the male and female body unecessary for reproduction, yet whose only functions are as pleasure.

Also, we eat every day, yet who get's bored of eating? Hunger could drive us to eat. Negative impulse. However we also enjoy the taste. Taste buds and smell. We can explore the artistic creation in such minute ways with the senses.

I'd think a God of Love would indeed have every reaon to create freeminded beings that can give/receive love from/to him myself. That can enjoy the genius, and creativity he expressed.

The point of knowing God is it gives everything meaning. Everything has reason. There is not the uncertain random "Why am I here? How did I get here? What happened" The questions are answered. You may not agree with the answers, but you can't argue that I, and many others, have those answers ourselves.

As far as the hypothesis of the universe being a "speck on the bum of a beast" - yes yes, that's an old and lame attempt at shifting perceptions. You can get the same perceptional shift by looking up at the stars.

As far as proof of existence goes, well, I can't prove that you're alive, but I can prove I am.

"I think therefore I am."

And that's no new idea. It's no big secret. Self awareness proves existence.

But no worries. Take care of the small issues. Girlfriend, school, job, hobbies. I'll focus on the big issues.

The thing I've found is that getting the big picture in place - including the large issues in ones view - makes the smaller things less problematic. Part of a ride. The whole scene is viewed with an entire perspective, not one distracted by the problems of one day.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by /)eathKiller: Every time that Life reproduces itself and then betters itself that is evolution. it is very gradual, but it is evolution if it is bettering itself through reproduction. This is what makes machines below organisms right now. Machines cannot make themselves better they are only assembly line producers. If we should create a machine that could evoulve... well... it would probably see us as a virus and it'd be like in the Matrix

And who creates the machines with the ability to evolve? A creator. A human.

Yes social and species contained evolution occurs. But mutations have not been seen. They rely on us "having faith and believing that evolution works in mysterious ways". (for Caleb)

[Krishach]

Ah, yes, just like the Easter Bunny creates eggs, God created the planets. I think some are just too scared to admit there isn't a God, that we really don't have a purpose, that we are just here, alone, with no divine direction, and that's it. We live, we die, an endless cycle that has no meaning. Perhaps man isn't one of God's creations, but God is one of man's creations...

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Yorick: The point of knowing God is it gives everything meaning. Everything has reason. There is not the uncertain random "Why am I here? How did I get here? What happened" The questions are answered. You may not agree with the answers, but you can't argue that I, and many others, have those answers ourselves. [/QB]

i agree completely. knowing god gives you all the answers, places you in a nice position where you can view things from a comfortable place without doubt or fear. where the answers are given, where doubt is not an option.

personally, i much rather doubt. i much rather think for myself. i much rather look for my own answers, even if i may never find them.

Originally posted by Yorick: But no worries. Take care of the small issues. Girlfriend, school, job, hobbies. I'll focus on the big issues. The thing I've found is that getting the big picture in place - including the large issues in ones view - makes the smaller things less problematic. Part of a ride. The whole scene is viewed with an entire perspective, not one distracted by the problems of one day.[/QB]

life is more reassuring and bearable if you believe everything happens for a reason. sadly, thats often not the case.

[ 04-20-2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

[Downunda]

Originally posted by Krishach: Ah, yes, just like the Easter Bunny creates eggs, God created the planets. I think some are just too scared to admit there isn't a God, that we really don't have a purpose, that we are just here, alone, with no divine direction, and that's it. We live, we die, an endless cycle that has no meaning. Perhaps man isn't one of God's creations, but God is one of man's creations...

I thought I was the only one who thought this [img]smile.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by Leonis: As I understand it - Darwin's Theory of Evolution is just that - still a theory, a hypothesis. If it was proven beyond doubt (there are still major holes in it) it would be called Darwin's Rule of Evolution.

Well, it's a theory that is mostly understood to be fact. There is also Newton's Theory of Gravitational Attraction, but of course no one disputes that.

What I see as a stumbling block is, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Evolution is meant to be a process of 'survival of the fittest' - if we are the evolved 'fitter' apes, how come the inferior ones survived the conditions that forced the evolutionary change?

We didn't evolve from apes - Darwin's whole idea was that there was a "missing link", from which man and apes both evolved. Apes are not our ancestors, they are our cousins. And that's why they're still around.

Creationism has enough holes to put Swiss cheese to shame, so for now, I think I'll stick with evolution.[/QUOTE]Alexander Give me the Holes

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: quote: Originally posted by dizzy: Im a christian and believe in the creation but its a matter of faith evololution hasnt been proved true thats why its still called a theory yet you have to have blind faith in the Bible as well, There are Christian scientists as well who have come up with every bit as much prof of the creation as evolotionary scientists watch some videos by dr Ken Ham

This may be a wild idea to some. Who's to say that evolution wasn't the very tool god used to create us? Time is nothing to god. It's meaningless to him as it's only a perception we hold in our physical universe because of the make up of our physical bodies. Adam and Eve could very well have been the first two humans to have had souls as his children. Their bodies and the animals created by the process of evolvement. By the wonderous machine god created that is our planet and the physical universe. It's possible just like a million other things are. I like it though.

As far as seeing the effects of evolvement. You can see them even in us. As you cross the world you will see gradually changing physical features in the natives of the areas. The larger the land area, the more variations you'll see. The most pronounced physiological differences are, of course, the differences between the "Races" in the world. Even these relatively minor changes probably took upwards of 100,000 years to develop. I feel that evolvement is not only based on "survival of the fittest". I beleive there are some very subtle mechanisms in our bodies that can pass some changes caused by environment on to our children. In such a way that even a few generations can show a small change if the environmental conditions are severe enough. I don't think the variations in the genetic patterns are completely random.[/QUOTE]Preach It Brother

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: We didn't evolve from apes - Darwin's whole idea was that there was a "missing link", from which man and apes both evolved. Apes are not our ancestors, they are our cousins. And that's why they're still around. Creationism has enough holes to put Swiss cheese to shame, so for now, I think I'll stick with evolution.

The problem with the "missing link" theory is that it is just that - MISSING. Despite Darwin's theory...no bona fide evidence has EVER been found of this "missing link". Scientists have discovered skeletal remains that pre-date and post-date the "link", but have never found any remains that could conclusevily be classified as the heralded "missing link"

AFA the "holes" in Creationism, please specify them. If there are so many,then it shouldn't be hard to list them.

The fact is, there is just as much documentation to support Creationism as there is Evolution...but since the documentation for Creationism is a religious text, then it is rejected out-of-hand.

For those who may not know (or can't tell), I belong to the "deeply religious" segment. Here is a link to a Christian website's answer to several questions concerning Evolution vs Creationism.

Evolution vs Creation[/QUOTE]Well, belief in Creationism is started by taking the Bible literally - at its word. If it says "God created the world in 6 days", by Jove, he did it in 6 days, not 7 days, and certainly not millions of years.

Going by that "logic", if you take the Bible literally (as you would with Creationism), it lists the ages of certain people going all the way back to Adam. Add up the number of years these people lived, and according to the Bible, you should get an accurate age of the Earth.

The problem with this is that if you do that, you find that the Earth is about 4-5 thousand years old, give or take a few hundred years. Yet there is a plethora of evidence to indicate that it is much, much older than this (do the words "dinosaur" and "carbon-dating" come to mind?).

So, in order to avoid conflicting with known FACTS, one cannot take the Bible totally and absolutely literally. So, then, why should one take it totally and absolutely literally when it says that God created the world in 6 days, etc., etc.?[/QUOTE]Who says you have to take the Bible Literally? It would not seem more logical that God, in explaining Creation to a bunch of Sheep and goat herders in terms that they could grasp. Would you have God explain all the intricaces(sp?) of quantum phsyics to shepards, Nomads that had barely crawled out of the stone age? Give me a break! Even now with all our Great computing power, and quantum physists working the rear-ends off , the best we can do is 1 to -43 power of a second after the big bang (Oct 1999 National Geographic). They can only theorize the effect on the phsyical world AFTER the big bang . they can not tell you why the big bang occured.
As for the 6 days. What is time to an infinite being? God is not bound by time.