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Old 06-17-2002, 02:51 PM   #31
Sir Kenyth
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
Yorik a little off topic here: The USA health system is not in chaos, it's the finest in the world. Most of the medical advances in modern medicine have been made in the USA. It's paying to get health care that is the hard part, not the health care itself. But then nothing in life is free that comes from man.
Well paying for it is what I'm talking about. The finest in the world? Health coverage is ridiculously expensive in the USA. Far more than in any other nation. Families can either go practically broke with the premiums, or broke from uninsured medical expenses. It's frightening.

Doctors get paid more than in any other nation, but have their own insurance premiums that are through the roof.

Why? The culture of litigation prevalent in the United "it's always somebody elses fault" States.

I've been told that less individuals are taking up medicine, and that if not addressed, a doctor shortage will exist in the near future.

As far as medical advances, Australia is also a leader John. Yet we have universally subsidised health care.

It amazes me that there are people here who oppose the rich subsidising the poors health care at all, let alone an increase in line with other western nations.
[/QUOTE]I fully agree with the litigation problem. I've seen more stupid things come from fear of litigation than I care to. Removing "dangerous" things from playgrounds. Dropping speed limits on county roads because they might get sued if someone is in an accident. Litigation for medical problems caused by accidents is quite lucrative. I myself was sued for an accident almost seven years after it happened for an elusive back problem. The only reason I was sued was because I had insurance and they found a litigation lawyer. It was settled out of court for a large sum ($50,000) by my insurance company.
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Old 06-17-2002, 03:21 PM   #32
Oblivion437
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Whether science is or is not a religion is based on the structure of it in itself.
Religions, namely christianity during the enlightenment, told you to believe it, even if you couldn't explain the nature of it. This was during a time when old teachings were being torn asunder, like the notion that Earth was the Center of the universe.

Science told you to believe only what made sense, if it didn't make sense, pick it apart until it did. Morality shouldn't interfere in science, before, when scientists cared about religious beliefs, they didn't disect humans, which after doing so proved numerous ancient Greek medicinal practices false. If science can't explain something, it calls what it does know theory.
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Old 06-17-2002, 03:43 PM   #33
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Science has already confirmed some ideas rooted in Mystic religions. An excellent book that links these ideas is "The Tao of Physics".

For Ages mystics have espouted the idea that matter isnt really a bunch of seperate things, but is fundmentally energy vibrating at different frequencies giving rise to various forms and elements. Also, all matter and energy is interconnected on an unseen level.

The science of quantum physics has theories that confirm these age-old ideas and more.

Im of the thinking that science and religion coexist and intermingle. Both have their place in human affairs. Science is not religion though, Science has practices and ideology unique to science (ever see a scientist/tel-evanglist?) just as religion has its own uniquness. They are connected though...
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Old 06-17-2002, 04:15 PM   #34
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnabas:
It seems that this discussion is slowly leaning towards "which is better-- science or religion". Silly. We need both. As for the original question, I believe that science is religion. Belief makes reality, after all. Science is simply a religion that is so widely accepted, that is is viewed as fact by (almost) all. Think back several centuries and imagine someone who is dying of a certain disease. Perhaps a shaman or witch-doctor, or mage, or whatever, tells the man that he must drink a tea made from the bark of a certain tree. He explains that the spirit of the tree will go into the man and destroy the evil spirit making him ill. A more scientifically minded person would say that a chemical in the tree bark fights the infection, or disease. Your point of view determines which is "true". Regardless, the man is cured. The scientist and mage will disagree on why, but the end result is the same. A person today might be given a placebo and recover from his illness. His belief is what helps his immune system recover. Again, there are different points of view on why this is. Science, to me, is another way-- a more widely accepted way-- of explaining magic. People traditionally fear what they don't understand and science gave the masses a way to quantify and understand the unknown.
I'm probably going to get grief for my statements... I use a silly argument, I know, but I firmly accept that reality is based on our perception. We have a consensual reality based upon a scientific paradigm, but that does not erase the truth behind magic, religion, etc. Science is simply another way of explaining the same things, and as such is a religion.
This is a great post.

I was trying to say in my post that Religion uses science, and some parts of some religions ARE science. "Science" being the pursuit of knowledge.

Fair call about the technology issue Claude, but that's the line I was taking. I don't blame science for the bomb, but then I don't blame Christ for the crusades.

It seems some here have double statndards though, applying one rule to science and another to religion.

Simply the employing the concept say, "Theology is not science" is itself applying a subjectivity as to the nature of knowledge. If the pursuit of knowledge is ammoral and valueless, then there is no way to measure the relative impotance of the various fields.

Theology is no more or less important than Psychology, Geology, Biology, or the study of ant mating rituals.

Do we cordon off the field of archeology and say "Well because it's not dealing with human life it's not a science".

No, knowledge is knowledge, and there are myriad ways to gather information.
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Old 06-17-2002, 04:16 PM   #35
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
yes indeed. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

and yes, when and if men ever manage to conquer space, and travel and live in other planets lots of religions will have a hard time adapting their faith (lets not even mention it if life outside earth is discovered... we are the chosen ones!). i guess version 2.0 of lots of holy books will start cropping up all over the place. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
It'll make no difference to mine.
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Old 06-17-2002, 04:18 PM   #36
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
just to point out something. there is NO WAY that the american and other govs (through nasa) have spent billions of dollars in SETI programs. as a matter of fact, it has had problems raising money to function properly (and it isnt so much in scale). potentially, what could be the biggest discovery in the history of the human race deserves much more than its being given, as the hole space program, that is severely underfunded (compare what nasa gets to what other govt institutions get and its sort of a joke).

We are in agreement possibly for the first time. [img]smile.gif[/img] The space program has been one of the more rewarding government endeavors. I think the tech funding for NASA is way too low. I suppose if man actually ever manages to transplant a population off the earth that would cause some problems for those who follow the Apocrypha and the book of revelations.
[/QUOTE]I criticised SETI funding amounts, not NASA MagiK.
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Old 06-17-2002, 04:29 PM   #37
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Come on Yorick, you know that religion has easily been the basis for as many wars and the killings of people as politics over the long history of man. You also have to say, if you begrudge SETI and Other scientific endevors the dollars spent, you would also have to include all the billions collected by televangelists and other organized religions, and lets include money spent on comic books, computers, sporting equipment and on and on. You could argue that any money spent on anything but feeding the hungry and clothing the poor was a colosal iresponsible waste of time and money.

If you look at things in a certain way, all life is a waste of time and we should all just die so we can be with the creator now, rather than waste all this energy and time. I just don't understand the point of view you have on this subject....ahh well it isnt the first time [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh and an incredibly bad move and mean too to put those other leaders in the same catagory as Stalin and Hitler. If you really see no difference there there is a large discussion in and of itself.
I certainly don't see religion as a cause for conflict MagiK. I've already stated why and what are the counter causes. You will not convince me otherwise.

As far as putting the leaders in together, these are leaders viewed as initiators of war for various reasons. I'm not commenting on the justification of the said wars, but on the wars themselves. One could actually argue Hussein had a case against Kuwait, who were strangling Iraq on the oil market (an economic war).

One has to wonder why Britain created Kuwait at all, instead of merging it with the newly created Iraq. Oh yes, it was because huge amounts of oil existed there right?

Churches as opposed to SETI, give back to the community. They provide various free services such as counselling, motivational lectures, marriage guidance, career guidance for kids, musical education, literary dissection training, clothing and food for the homeless, and a sense of community to the kinless, that are reliant on DONATIONS to be perpetuated.

If someone gives to a tele-eveangelist, they do so out of their own free will, not legal taxation, or imposed and perpetuated addiction as in the case of tobbacco.
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Old 06-17-2002, 08:37 PM   #38
Arnabas
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Yorick, I wish we lived in the same city-- I'd love to spend an afternoon somewhere chatting and sharing ideas. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 06-17-2002, 08:56 PM   #39
Ladyzekke
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Well back to the original topic, i.e, Science and/or Religion:

Well the subject of science and religion kinda go hand in hand to me. of course it always depends on each individual person, some believe one thing, others believe something else. But for me, I feel that science in many way shows that there are things out there than cannot be seen, but exist. I mean, who discovered the existence of air? oxygen? I can't see it, but obviously it is there, I breath it in constantly, it keeps me alive, yet I do not see it. When a person catches a cold or a flu, and sneezes or coughs, I cannot see the billions of germs floating about, I cannot see them land on a doorknob, when another person touches that doorknob, I don't see how the germ sticks to that person's hands, and I cannot see when they rub their nose or eye and how it enters into their body, ultimately making them sick as well. But it happens. Lots of things happen that we cannot see. There is a whole different world out there, a microscopic world, that we cannot even see. So for me personally, I am never one to scoff at what I cannot see, and say if it is not visually in front of my face and obvious, it therefore cannot exist. No way, I'd be an ignorant fool to do so.

So I believe in God. I believe in a creator that I cannot see. And not just because of what I typed above, but also because if you look at this planet with a keen eye, you realize the synchronicity (word?) of things. Not only were us humans created, but look at how this planet was created for us. Water we need and water we are given, not only by lakes and oceans, but by rain as well. Trees and plantlife breath in carbon dioxide, and breath out oxygen, we humans breath in oxygen, and breath out carbon dioxide, perfection. Trees also give us shade in the summer, and homes for the birds, who eat bugs and mosquitoes. Worms live underground to aireate the soil, which helps plants live. This entire planet has given us so much to live on, to use and grow on. What keeps your automobile driving eh? Comes from the earth. Aspirin, got a headache? Comes from a tree. Many diseases and ailments have been cured from ingredients found on mother earth. All the answers are given to us, all the essentials, it is just up to us to realize and find them. Is this a coincidence? I say this to those that may think that humans were made in some cosmic burb random thing. If that were so, then how come we got so lucky with Earth, which supplies so much for us to live and prosper.

So in summary, Science? Yes! Religion? Yes!

And for those of you who don't believe in God, this is just my personal feelings, and I respect everyone's stance, whether it be athiest or another belief system or some other religion or no religion at all. This is simply my personal thoughts on the subject. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 06-17-2002, 08:58 PM   #40
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnabas:
Yorick, I wish we lived in the same city-- I'd love to spend an afternoon somewhere chatting and sharing ideas. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Maybe we will at some point. You're in Montreal right?
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