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Old 06-24-2002, 11:01 PM   #111
DeSoya
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Join Date: March 27, 2002
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Geez, Leonis! I'm a bonehead!

I totally agree with you. Look at me <---- mr. Hypocrite. I don't believe in the bible but I have read the old testament which all comes, as you obviously know, BCE. What a silly mistake. Thanks for catching my gaffe.

What I think of as biblical era is new testament stuff. Or I guess after the founding of the church. As I said above. I didn't think at all of the old stuff. No mention of a flat earth from what I recall.

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Old 06-25-2002, 03:11 AM   #112
K T Ong
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Join Date: January 27, 2002
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Just thought I'd add my thoughts...

To go back to the original question of this thread, is science a religion?

I say it depends on how you define religion -- and for that matter how you define science as well. The Hierophant (on page 1 of this thread) said as much.

Perchance one may venture a definition of religion as a body of beliefs and convictions regarding the world and human life, which serves as a guide for thought and conduct. If we go by this definition of religion, then it would seem to me that contemporary Western science is a religion indeed, because it clearly subscribes to certain fundamental beliefs and convictions regarding the universe, one of which is that there is order and regularity in the universe, that all things in the universe follow definite laws of nature. After all, isn't science all about finding out what these laws are? And would you devote so much of your energy and resources (look at all the funding for scientific research) to finding out about something you don't believe in?

Perhaps some may object that my definition of religion leaves out an important point, namely that the beliefs and convictions that constitute a religion are supposed to be unprovable. They can't be proven either in a stepwise, logical manner (as in proving Pythagoras' Theorem) or by hard, empirical data (as when I put a live dinosaur in front of people to show them that dinosaurs actually exist -- if I can find a live dinosaur, that is). Well, even if we allow for that, science still looks like a religion to me. Just tell me how you're going to prove to me that there is order and regularity in the universe, that all things in the universe follow definite laws of nature. Through logical argumentation? Impossible. Via empirical observation? Not possible, either. It comes down to faith. This in fact also holds true for all the 'proofs' and 'evidence' which science prides itself on: they all ultimately rest on certain propositions for which there is no proof -- propositions such as 'all things in the universe follow definite laws of nature'. The Hierophant could not have said it better. You just have to accept those propositions on the basis of faith -- or, if you prefer (as I do), intuition.

Face it -- science is a religion. As are capitalism and communism for that matter.

[ 06-25-2002, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:04 AM   #113
Earthdog
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Where to start?? Good posts with lots of quality points made.

Firstly, Id like to say that instead of joining the religious debate I will state my opinion that this topic was basicly (to me) a yes or no question.

No, I do not believe science is a religion. There are many different types of sciences. Theology is just as much of a science as biology is. I dont feel an overpowering need to elaborate on that since its been discussed for 5 pages now.

Now to be like everyone else and spew forth for a few paragraphs [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Many scientists BECOME scientists simply to find out how God made things the way he did." Thats a quote said to me by many doctors and physicists. They chose to become involved in science to see how GOD made all this "neat stuff".

Not having the benefit of a college education,I have to take the word of people more educated than myself. Luckily, my mom worked at a medical school where I got to know quite a few people who DID have college educations [img]smile.gif[/img] Doctors are neat people to have a debate with [img]smile.gif[/img]
It's amazing to me that so many people who have based their lives as adults on SCIENCE still have great religious faith.

I have a couple things to say and I dont want any misunderstandings as to my religious faith or belief in God or whatever yall choose to view it as.

First I am a Christian. I was raised in the Church of Christ. Not a Catholic or Baptist or anything else. I find it disgusting that SO MANY wars have been fought in the name of religion. There might have been underlying motivations like greed ect., but the wars were fought in the name of religion.

"More people have died in the name of religion than from any other cause." This may or may not be true but again I have to take the word of people who have more time and inclinations to study the so-called facts. Of course it is also true that there are more people alive today than have ever died in the history of the world.

The Spanish Inquisition=holy war. The spaniards succeeded in one thing: wipe out the prosperous middle class. Spain destroyed its own economy in the name of religious conversion. It took years to recover from, and well, I dont think they ever really did.

Have yall heard of the Crusades??? Who was the First "Crusader"??? Ill tell ya. The LAST EMPORER OF ROME. Even though he didnt actually become "saved" until he was mortally wounded and on his deathbed he was the first Roman leader to see the error of the crucifixion of Christ. Pity that I cant remember his name. Regardless, He was the first person to say "Believe in Christ or die by my sword heathen swine!!!!" Sad but true.

Being a Christian I still believe (like many) that God caused the Big Bang and all evolution.

Contrary to the Bible I dont buy the stuff that says the earth is only 6,000 years old. Science has proven that the earth is BILLIONS of years old.

One thing i cant stand is that so many religions say "Mine is right and yours is wrong. You are going to burn in hell" For example I knew a Catholic woman who told me she liked this one guy and he did good work but it was too bad he was going to burn in hell forever. "How do you figure??"

"Well hes jewish. Hee doesnt believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as his saviour. Hes gonna burn in hell."

The man believes in GOD. How can that be wrong??? Slam dunk on the point there.

As for the "god given ability" to do anything, particularly play a sport: I dont buy that either. As someone said before "its a talent he was BORN with. Thats called GENETICS. It is in a persons DNA not his religious faith to be successful at sports (or anything else for that matter.) Are Shaq and Kobi Christains??? Would it matter if they were muslims or buddhists??

God didnt give the individual the ability to catch the ball and score the game winning touchdown. Thats called physical coordination, strength determination ect. Years of training to teach their bodies to do that is what put them in the spotlight.

One guy scores the game (and championchip) winning touchdown and says "Id like to thank God for giving me the ability to catch the ball and score and win the game. [img]smile.gif[/img] "

The guys on the other team say "We were in the game till JESUS made me fumble "

Sorry but thats one thing I just cant agree with even if I AM a Christian.

Hitler. Before Hitler even started WW2 he had plans to wipe out the Jews. He simply didnt implement the plan until the invasions of certain countries. His pathlogical hatred for ALL Jews was an underlying cause to the war. Odd that he was Austian by birth but he dreampt of a "perfect German society" Jews were never involved in this vision of perfection. They were the scourge of the earth in his eyes.

Too bad he wasnt accepted to the Vienna School of Art. The world might have been a much better place.
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:19 AM   #114
Leonis
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeSoya:
Geez, Leonis! I'm a bonehead!

I totally agree with you. Look at me <---- mr. Hypocrite. I don't believe in the bible but I have read the old testament which all comes, as you obviously know, BCE. What a silly mistake. Thanks for catching my gaffe.

What I think of as biblical era is new testament stuff. Or I guess after the founding of the church. As I said above. I didn't think at all of the old stuff. No mention of a flat earth from what I recall.

DeSoya
That has to be one of the most affable responses to what amounted to a correction I've ever seen here! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
No worries DeSoya, I frequently dip into the silly mistake bin and pull out some corkers. For years I pronounced 'excrement' as 'excretement'...(well, excrete...you know...)

...and just had to edit 'cause I spelt your name wrong... [img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img]

[ 06-26-2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Leonis ]
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:52 PM   #115
Oblivion437
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Actually, there are less than 7 billion people here now, there have been FAR more than that throughout history, if the world population was ever over 1 billion, which it was, for more than a thousand years, which it has been, that statement is incorrect.
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:24 PM   #116
Leonis
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
Actually, there are less than 7 billion people here now, there have been FAR more than that throughout history, if the world population was ever over 1 billion, which it was, for more than a thousand years, which it has been, that statement is incorrect.
I take it you mean this?
Quote:
Originally posted by Eartdog:
Of course it is also true that there are more people alive today than have ever died in the history of the world.
Would you mind quoting or at least addressing such replies as it can be confusing when you're talking about one line in a long post not immediately above yours.
Cheers! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]
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Old 06-27-2002, 09:44 AM   #117
Earthdog
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Would you mind quoting or at least addressing such replies as it can be confusing when you're talking about one line in a long post not immediately above yours.
Cheers! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]

I dont think I understand what you mean. What I said pretty much looks to me (in hindsight) like a stand alone comment.

[img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]
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Old 06-27-2002, 10:15 AM   #118
Yorick
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I think he was talking to Oblivion, who hadn't quoted what or who he was replying to.
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Old 06-27-2002, 11:35 PM   #119
Leonis
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I think he was talking to Oblivion, who hadn't quoted what or who he was replying to.
Yes I was, sorry. Guilty of not being clear myself...
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