standing for peace

[Epona]

There is a body which could deal with terrorists - it's called the International Criminal Court - but the US refuses to recognise it - I'm not sure why, perhaps someone could enlighten me.

Good for you Tracey, I couldn't get to the Downing Street vigil on Saturday, but I was there last Tuesday evening, and will be again. It is essential to let our 'leaders' know how we feel.

There has been a discussion here about carpet bombing and 'military targets' - but even if carpet bombing is not used, that does not mean that there will be no civilian deaths. Military targets include factories where ordinary people work, trying to feed their families. In some cases, so called military targets have included hospitals and food processing plants. And bombs miss their targets - there is no such thing as a bomb so 'smart' it does not kill innocent people. Sanctions alone have resulted in the death of over quarter of a million children in Iraq. This is inhuman!

Yes, justice is needed, but bombing (even so called military targets) will not bring justice - it will breed hatred and resentment and growth in support of the Taliban, who are a hated regime. Deal with this through the courts.

And I'd just like to agree about knowing what terrorism is like - I live in London. Every day there are security alerts on the underground. I am evacuated from the building I work in on a regular basis. I live near to 2 large buildings which have been blown up - Bishopsgate is within a mile of my house, and the Docklands is not far from me - when the latter went up, my windows were nearly blown in. Fortunately there was little loss of life due to the timiing of the bombs and good evacuation procedures. Another target a few years ago was Victoria station which I use regularly. A bus on the route I use was blown up more recently. When I look out of my window I have a very good view of the Natwest Tower and The Lloyds building, and Canary Wharf in the other direction - all have been potential targets for a number of years. A few weeks ago I couldn't get home from work because there was a 1 mile cordon, possibly around the Inmarsat building, again less than a mile from my flat. Also the government department I work for is a target for Animal Rights terrorists (I would like to state now that the vast majority of animal rights activists in no way support bombing or terrorism, and I have some sympathy with their cause). As well as bomb threats (and colleagues in other buildings around the country have been killed by car bombs) we get threats of biological warfare agents (a package allegedly containing Anthrax was the most recent, fortunately it was a hoax but many people had an anxious wait for the test results), and more individual threats such as letters containing faeces, rotting meat, small nail bombs, or with razor blades taped under the flap of the envelope.
But what is the solution to this? Would bombing Northern Ireland help? Of course not. It would just create martyrs. As every death in Afghanistan would have the potential of creating another Taliban supporter or suicide bomber.

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Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

[Fljotsdale]

Good for you, Epona! Bombing NEVER gets the terrorists - it only ADDS to their ranks.

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[skywalker]

"we get threats of biological warfare agents (a package allegedly containing Anthrax was the most recent, fortunately it was a hoax but many people had an anxious wait for the test results)"

Epona! Even the the threats and hoaxes are still terrorism, they are no less dangerous than actual deeds in the minds of those affected. You have my support if want it!

There is so much anger and hate in the USA, that it seems nothing less than military strikes, will satiate the desire for revenge. Many see this in 3 colors, not two, Black and White, but also Red.

You and your country have dealt with terror for a long time and still deal with it. Your country has been trying to stop it with little result. We, on the other hand get hit big time, and respond with the (threat of) flexing of our military muscle and I, too worry of the results.

Realize, that from what I gather of the speeches made, that if the IRA continue their terrorist actions, there may be strikes from this coalition. Our leadership believes that we can make an example of bin Laden and the Taliban, which will cause all other groups to stop there actions and world will be safe again. I hope they are right, but I won't hold my breath.

A very fine post Epona!

Mark

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Epona: There is a body which could deal with terrorists - it's called the International Criminal Court - but the US refuses to recognise it - I'm not sure why, perhaps someone could enlighten me. ...But what is the solution to this? Would bombing Northern Ireland help? Of course not. It would just create martyrs. As every death in Afghanistan would have the potential of creating another Taliban supporter or suicide bomber.

Brilliant post Epona. I so empathise with your experiences of terrorist activity in London.... which are similar to my own. And yes, absolutely, on bombing Northern Ireland. For every terrorist killed in such an act, 100 would rise up to take his place. It seems so obvious.... doesn't it?



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[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: *sigh* This is looking circular. No-one is talking old fashioned war.

Look, I am not about to sit here and argue about what Bush will or will not do. I do not know the answer to what he will do, but I do know that we will find out soon. Like the rest of you, I will know when it happens and NOT before.

However, with that understood, it is glaringly obvious that many of my countrymen ARE talking in terms of war. The newspapers are full of articles and editorials and letters to that effect. People are talking about it on the street. We are certainly massing enough military might to wage an old fashioned war, and you are simply naive if you dismiss out of hand the possibility that our government will use that massed military might.

Moridin, I used the phrase "carpet bombing" as a short hand figure of speech to refer our general "bomb'em back to the stone age" approach that Americans seem so fond of. I am well aware of our military's propaganda regarding its so called pin point attacks with smart bombs, and I am well aware that such propaganda amounts to misinformation so blatant it approaches an outright lie. (For example, I remember very well during the Gulf War how the military/press joint propaganda machine was so fond of showing film of precision attacks with smart weapons, with the overriding implication that America fought justly since we only made precision attacks on military targets, when the truth as revealed after that war was that 1) the accuracy of such smart weapons was exaggerated and 2) such smart weapons were a relatively small portion of the ordnance dropped by our warplanes -- much more common were the traditional "dumb" bombs.

Again, I sincerely hope our leaders do not take hasty and ill advised actions, but right now it appears we are indeed rushing headlong into the future without thinking through what we are about to do.

What I question is the emotion based, panic driven desire to strike back immediately with our military. When you talk about the need to strike immediately, before the terrorists can strike again, you are talking out of an irrational sense of panic. You speak as if terrorism was just invented with the attacks on the WTC, as if the terrorists just sprang full force onto the world scene 2 weeks ago. You forget that these terrorists have been around for a long time. As bad as the attack on the WTC was, the world is not going to collapse if we don't nuke them all tomorrow. Acting otherwise is acting out of a sense of PANIC, which is notorious for creating ill advised and rash mistakes.

Again, for the benefit of anybody who seems determined to view Bush as the model of restrained wisdom, let me emphasize yet again that I am witholding judgement on Bush's handling of this situation because it is yet unfolding. I am simply arguing for a calm and reasoned approach to this situation, instead of rushing off to strike out with our military out of fear and panic. Perhaps Bush WILL prove to be calm and reasoned. I would be very happy if so, and will gladly throw away my misgivings and reservations about what I fear he may do. However, that remains to be seen either way, now doesn't it?

In the mean time, I will continue to argue for calm and reason and patience in handling the situation. If Bush takes the approach I am advocating, more power to him. If not, the world will know soon enough.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: However, with that understood, it is glaringly obvious that many of my countrymen ARE talking in terms of war. The newspapers are full of articles and editorials and letters to that effect. People are talking about it on the street. We are certainly massing enough military might to wage an old fashioned war, and you are simply naive if you dismiss out of hand the possibility that our government will use that massed military might. ...In the mean time, I will continue to argue for calm and reason and patience in handling the situation. If Bush takes the approach I am advocating, more power to him. If not, the world will know soon enough.

OH YES! Say it again, Sam.... (Don't worry, you will be....)

Major applause from the cheetah in the pink corner. (Difficult for a cheetah, but I'm doing my best. Paws can be a bit hard to manage, sometimes....



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[tracey]

tancred
okay......... truce called. a little late, perhaps, been working and not fiddling on computer! bad bunny that i am.

yorick

hello. haven't been around for a while to chat, so nice to see your letters. i think you'll be pleased that i've been reading a lot of posts before actually deciding to leap back into the fray, with a slightly more coherent idea of how communication functions when faces are not present to stick out tongues and my cute and innocent visage is not on display disarming the 'opponent'! so. i hope not to offend unless intended.

epona - what's 'appenin on the london peace march/dtand front? i'd really like to come down and stand bleakly in the drizzle. unfortunately, i've got to take my clothes off tomorrow for a art class so i can't attend a meeting to find out what's going on and the rest of the week is taken up with work and prior commitments. hopefully, there will be demonstrations going on all over the place. london, however, does tend to have a lot more media coverage.

i discovered today that one of my best friends was at the same demo as me on saturday. we missed each other by a matter of minutes. she's a muslim, and feels incredibly strongly about the situation. however, as she pointed out a few days ago, if i have a go about anything connected with bush and war talk, it's an opinion, if she expresses similar views she's a fundamentalist extremist! sad but true.

is anyone else reading this likely to go out and demonstrate against the military action? if so, it would be really great if you could post your support here. it would be nice to know that there are more than a couple of us. particularly since so many of you share pacifist views and and are obviously horrified at what may happen.

[Epona]

Tracey, where are you based and what is going on in your area?
I can certainly let you know by e-mail about events in London when I have details. Last Friday I attended an excellent meeting of over 2000 people, and there were over 3000 on the vigil in London on Saturday. I also heard that there were 2000 - 3000 in Oxford(!!!!!) on a peace vigil - organised I think by local Christians and other religions. They went on a circuit I think to visit a mosque and a synagogue in the name of brotherhood and peace etc, or so I heard, this is second hand information!

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Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."