new Cold War Theory

[lord_gabriel]

...well i guess 'soviet way of helping out countries' is a lot better than nowadays US-American active Expansionism isn't it..? I hope that soon all European countries will realize that the USA is currently led by a complete maniac and act accordingly.

Originally posted by Avatar: This was on the BBC radio this morning and it regarded a new book coming out accusing the US and British governments of escalating the cold war. According the the book, the Russians never had any intention for global conquest nor to actively spread communism. Any country been invaded twice and lost 20million people to the Germans would natrually want to control neighbouring countries as a buffer zone against the future threats. And the paranoia of the west after seeing how the Russian military can steamroll German troops so quickly was scared and reacted out of proportion. TThe spread of communism was like evolution in some countries and it wasn't because revolutions were incited and supported actively by Russia. What do u all think?

As far as I can recall, from my history classes, Russia alwyas claimed it just desired to protect itself....and Poland, and all of the Balkans and East Germany and Cuba and.....Well you get the idea, It is when Russia whent from being Russia to being the USSR that things got tense. Even duringWorld War II both Britain and the USA knew that there was a clash of IDEALS coming, comunism vs democracy.

Personally I think any claim that either side was the sole cause of the cold war is ridiculous, the cold war rose from fear, suspicion and distrust on both sides....Of course Nikita Krucschev beating his shoe on the podium in the United Nations screaming "We will burry you!!!" could not have made anyone in the west too awful comfy....

Originally posted by lord_gabriel: ...well i guess 'soviet way of helping out countries' is a lot better than nowadays US-American active Expansionism isn't it..? I hope that soon all European countries will realize that the USA is currently led by a complete maniac and act accordingly.

That actually made me laugh [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks I needed a good chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am actually quite happy that now that europe has started pulling together into the EU the USA can quit bothering to send all those tens of billions your way in aid for every little disaster that strikes [img]smile.gif[/img] YOu all can pull together and maybe be as successful as the USA. I can see it now..the United States of Europe.... well eventually.

Originally posted by /)eathKiller: I think the cold war was great because it seemed to have no begining and no recorded end, it also never got "hot" and as far as I'm concerned I think that we wouldn't have been on the moon by now had it not been for them much less would be be creating an international space station. Another thing: I wouldn't be in Cuba right now had it not been for the cold war so I think we have alot of things to attribute to it. Though China being communist REALLY REALLY bugs the hell out of me... They just recently started a program to launch "men" into space... *has a conspiracty theory* it's probably a coverup for them to build orbiting nuclear satelites just ready to RAIN DOWN on us *bites nails and sweats* Just kidding by the way...

Actually I do believe the "official" end of the cold war was when the Soviet Economy collapsed and it ceased to exist as a political entity...right around the time when the Berlin wall came down.

Originally posted by Avatar: quote: Originally posted by johnny: i think that's a big load of bs if they were such peaceloving people who only were protecting their own borders, then why the missiles on cuba ? i think they had something nasty in mind, but then the country went broke and it all came to an end i still don't trust them though

the Amerian had missiles in Turkey. Russia reacted to USA a great deal less hostile.[/QUOTE]You forget, we were flying U2's over their airspace and thumbing our collective noses at them too, well untill they shot Gary Powers down...

As for Missiles, the US had them in Turkey, france was developing their own, and the Brits had them as well. The soviets worked darn hard to make sure that they "aquired" buffer zones between their cities and the west because of those missiles.

Originally posted by Azred: quote: Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: The only deterrent to abuse is competition. Large corporations and unchecked monopolies pose problems to this system though as they undermine the spirit of competition.

Herein lies the inherent problem with capitalism: in a capitalistic society, eventually some corporations will become so large and powerful that they will either buy out/absorb their competitors or make their products so well (or for such low cost) that their competitors go out of business. What you will eventually have is not healthy competition but a small group of extremely wealthy, large, and powerful companies who literally dominate the market place. Strangely enough, capitalism will result in a situation similar to some of those that led to the 19th- and 20th-century communist revolutions--a small group who are in de facto control of the rest of the population.

Getting back on topic, now.... I'm sure the Russians never considered global conquest (that is an impossibility) but they did consider--and pursue--the spread of their version of "communism".

Also consider this: without the Cold War, some of the technological advances made during the last 50 years would not have occurred; at the very least they would not have occurred at the rate that they did occur.

Just out of curiosity, Avatar, you didn't happen to catch the name of this book, did you?[/QUOTE]ou know, capitalism isn't just about the "Evil Corporations" It also applies to individual entrepenures, every day people who through hard work succeed and get ahead. The one unique thing about America is that ANYONE from ANYWHERE can escape a birth in poverty, if they are smart and hard working. That does kind of leave out the stupid lazy people but...well no system is perfect...and there is no gaurentee for even the smartest people, there is an element of luck....I know one woman who I swear has been cursed by the Universe. She makes all the right choices....just seemingly at the wrong times I feel bad for her.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by lord_gabriel: ...well i guess 'soviet way of helping out countries' is a lot better than nowadays US-American active Expansionism isn't it..? I hope that soon all European countries will realize that the USA is currently led by a complete maniac and act accordingly.

That actually made me laugh [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks I needed a good chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am actually quite happy that now that europe has started pulling together into the EU the USA can quit bothering to send all those tens of billions your way in aid for every little disaster that strikes [img]smile.gif[/img] YOu all can pull together and maybe be as successful as the USA. I can see it now..the United States of Europe.... well eventually.[/QUOTE]He wasn't kidding, he was serious. Although all European countries already know that we're being led by a maniac.

Doesn't it mean something not only when Bushie is hated by the entire Western world, but on top of that, he didn't even win the popular vote in the United States?

Does it mean anything to you that so many people didn't (and still don't) like him at all?

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by lord_gabriel: ...well i guess 'soviet way of helping out countries' is a lot better than nowadays US-American active Expansionism isn't it..? I hope that soon all European countries will realize that the USA is currently led by a complete maniac and act accordingly.

That actually made me laugh [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks I needed a good chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am actually quite happy that now that europe has started pulling together into the EU the USA can quit bothering to send all those tens of billions your way in aid for every little disaster that strikes [img]smile.gif[/img] YOu all can pull together and maybe be as successful as the USA. I can see it now..the United States of Europe.... well eventually.[/QUOTE]He wasn't kidding, he was serious. Although all European countries already know that we're being led by a maniac.

Doesn't it mean something not only when Bushie is hated by the entire Western world, but on top of that, he didn't even win the popular vote in the United States?

Does it mean anything to you that so many people didn't (and still don't) like him at all?[/QUOTE]Well now we're just making stuff up... hardly a way to win points and make friends.

American Active Expansionism? - When did that start? I would like to see some data on countries we've taken over recently. Does this mean there's going to be some new states soon?

There's a lot of cranky foreigners out there who begrudge us the role of world cop... yet I see very few other countries stepping up to do THAT thankless job. We free Afghanastan from a group of murderers who were systematically destroying the country, we empower the PEOPLE of that country to choose their own destiny, and still I hear rediculous claims of imperialism. Too many people these days have no idea what IMPERIALISM and EXPANSIONISM really mean. The US as a country has not grown by one acre in almost a hundred years.

The fact is whenever someone sticks their neck out and takes a stand on something, a LOT of people aren't going to like what he's doing. Those same people don't come forward with solutions of their own... they just pi$$ and moan about it. GW worries me, but so far I don't have a big problem with anything he's DONE, more with the level of control he's trying to get.

Last time I checked, GW... for all his faults... WON the election.
He won 30 out of the 50 states.
The popular vote was within half a percent

All the Dem's who're whining about popular vote are the same ones who'd whine about State's rights if it would get them the election. The electoral college is in place EXACTLY for the role it played in the last election... to keep large states like California and New York from essentially dictating the Presidency by weight of numbers.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: quote: Originally posted by Azred: Like many theories, communism looked good on paper but flopped miserably in practice. You cannot dictate that people willingly not strive to advance economically; people are too self-oriented to blindly follow "from each according to his ability; to each according to his need". Most people are just not that selfless. Anyway, Russia never posed the threat that the US thought it did. True, they had nuclear missiles, but their technology was overrated. Stalin was too anti-science for Russia to truly succeed (that nutcase killed more Russians than the Germans did in WW2). I agree that communism would be a "natural" reaction against centuries of monarchies/dictatorships, because when many people grow tired of being ruled by an aristocracy they will eventually revolt. On the other hand, the Cold War was really profitable for the military-industrial complex, yes? [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

Great thoughts! My opinion exactly. Take away the carrot of economic advancement and the mule of the populus quits moving. Another problem is with a central government so powerful, it's bound to be abused. It would eventually degenerate into a "Rich and powerful nobility vs. Poor working peasant populus" system. Power is almost ALWAYS abused in one way or another. Even in the US you see a lot of rich staying that way by leeching off the poorer common citizen. It's economics. That's the way it works. When you have control of what you pay the work force and what you charge for goods, it's easy to control the flow of money. The only deterrent to abuse is competition. Large corporations and unchecked monopolies pose problems to this system though as they undermine the spirit of competition.[/QUOTE]Excellent points, Sir K! Re your last, we appear to be heading for some serious problems on this front.

Mergers and acquisition activity by the largest companies, some of whom are gargantuan, mean that competition in some sectors is dwindling fast. Media, f'rinstance. Financial services - where the big five just turned into the big four... and so on. I see a future where one day, we're fed, dressed, entertained and so on by the same huge entity. Or maybe not. But how can small business compete when the giants can undercut almost any price a small business sets? Oh brave new world where Wal-mart rules!!!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Thoran: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by lord_gabriel: ...well i guess 'soviet way of helping out countries' is a lot better than nowadays US-American active Expansionism isn't it..? I hope that soon all European countries will realize that the USA is currently led by a complete maniac and act accordingly.

That actually made me laugh [img]smile.gif[/img] thanks I needed a good chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am actually quite happy that now that europe has started pulling together into the EU the USA can quit bothering to send all those tens of billions your way in aid for every little disaster that strikes [img]smile.gif[/img] YOu all can pull together and maybe be as successful as the USA. I can see it now..the United States of Europe.... well eventually.[/QUOTE]He wasn't kidding, he was serious. Although all European countries already know that we're being led by a maniac.

Doesn't it mean something not only when Bushie is hated by the entire Western world, but on top of that, he didn't even win the popular vote in the United States?

Does it mean anything to you that so many people didn't (and still don't) like him at all?[/QUOTE]Well now we're just making stuff up... hardly a way to win points and make friends.

American Active Expansionism? - When did that start? I would like to see some data on countries we've taken over recently. Does this mean there's going to be some new states soon?

There's a lot of cranky foreigners out there who begrudge us the role of world cop... yet I see very few other countries stepping up to do THAT thankless job. We free Afghanastan from a group of murderers who were systematically destroying the country, we empower the PEOPLE of that country to choose their own destiny, and still I hear rediculous claims of imperialism. Too many people these days have no idea what IMPERIALISM and EXPANSIONISM really mean. The US as a country has not grown by one acre in almost a hundred years.

The fact is whenever someone sticks their neck out and takes a stand on something, a LOT of people aren't going to like what he's doing. Those same people don't come forward with solutions of their own... they just pi$$ and moan about it. GW worries me, but so far I don't have a big problem with anything he's DONE, more with the level of control he's trying to get.

Last time I checked, GW... for all his faults... WON the election.
He won 30 out of the 50 states.
The popular vote was within half a percent

All the Dem's who're whining about popular vote are the same ones who'd whine about State's rights if it would get them the election. The electoral college is in place EXACTLY for the role it played in the last election... to keep large states like California and New York from essentially dictating the Presidency by weight of numbers.[/QUOTE]Oh do give over on the 'America standing up for the right' crap. America gets involved when those who are currently in office decides that it's in her interest to do so. Not unless. Get off of that moral high ground. It don't belong to you. Not nowise, not nohow. Does the word Rwanda ring any bells?