Is the Avatar series good?

[Ken Rauhl]

i just read the first half of Tantras. to me, it is like eating a dried, dust covered bread. it looks like dust, and tastes like it too. are those books worth reading? I am abt to return those, sophisticated trash.

[Morgeruat]

I hated them, very boring, and they felt like soemone had just written down a gaming session and tried, badly, to try and explain how the rule system related to a storyline.

that said, they're almost required readong for forgotten realms as much of the information in them is critical for understanding later books (i've heard positive reviews of some of the later books that follow after that trilogy, such as Crucible, the trial of Cyrik the mad)

[Ken Rauhl]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: I hated them, very boring, and they felt like soemone had just written down a gaming session and tried, badly, to try and explain how the rule system related to a storyline. that said, they're almost required readong for forgotten realms as much of the information in them is critical for understanding later books (i've heard positive reviews of some of the later books that follow after that trilogy, such as Crucible, the trial of Cyrik the mad)

yeah, that is what i thought too. Cyric is a little mad killer, and I am so puzzled why Midnight couldnt figure out on her own that Cyric is in for the tablet. does she want to cross Cyric at the end? I never bothered to read till the end, because the plot is so boring, the characters so dumb, and the encouter is so cheesy.

[Luvian]

Well.. you can't expect much from Wizard of the Coast novels. Most of them are like that. Especially Forgotten Realms ones. Did you know that Forgotten Realms was really inspired from a gaming session? Elminster and all where really once pcs.

[ 04-11-2003, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by Luvian: Well.. you can't expect much from Wizard of the Coast novels. Most of them are like that. Especially Forgotten Realms ones. Did you know that Forgotten Realms was really inspired from a gaming session? Elminster and all where really once pcs.

Um, Luv.. There are MANY Forgotten Realms novels that are EXCELLENT! The Drizzt Books, the Avatar Trilogy IS a great series and the follow up books are as well. I've read over 100 FR and DL novels, and yeah, some suck, but many of them are awesome.

Try the Icewind Dale Trilogy next. It's a classic series!

[Morgeruat]

i think i'll have to take the middle ground between the admin and the mod , the avatar trilogy was the primary reason it took me so long to get into forgotten realms novels, between them and greenwood's writing it took quite a bit to get me to take a second look. the avatar trilogy is written by Troy Denning under a pen name, after reading some of his other work, i can see why he used the assumed name, I wouldn't want my real name attached to that piece of garbage either, but Troy has written some very good novels for TSR (primarily the ones for Dark Sun, but a few FR novels too) as well as some pretty decent star wars books (I haven't read the star wars ones by him, but I've heard they are pretty ok).

the problem with TSR is they'll publish nearly any author if they can get a story inside of one of the approved game worlds, or so it seems, that's one of the primary reasons I stopped reading Dragonlance, with the exception of a few authors I liked the "shared worlds" of TSR invite utterly crappy authors to do their best to make me wish I was illiterate.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Ziroc: </font><blockquote>Quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Luvian: Well.. you can't expect much from Wizard of the Coast novels. Most of them are like that. Especially Forgotten Realms ones. Did you know that Forgotten Realms was really inspired from a gaming session? Elminster and all where really once pcs.

Um, Luv.. There are MANY Forgotten Realms novels that are EXCELLENT! The Drizzt Books, the Avatar Trilogy IS a great series and the follow up books are as well. I've read over 100 FR and DL novels, and yeah, some suck, but many of them are awesome.

Try the Icewind Dale Trilogy next. It's a classic series!</font>[/QUOTE]I've read them, I own the first 50 Forgotten Realms novels and the recent Elminster in Hell novel. I also own 3 Dragonlance novels and have read about all of Dragonlance series, too.

Sure, some are nice, but they are mostly time filler, none of them are masterpieces. There are some good ones, but if you compare them to the work of authors like Sara Douglass, George R.R. Martin, Terry Goodkinds, and some of the work of Robert Jordan, you can see a huge difference in quality. To me, it's like comparing a Buffy: The vampire slayer novel to a Stephen King novel. While buffy can be interesting, it lack the dept and quality found in a Stephen King novel.

Personally, I think the reason Wizard of the Coast novels can never be as good as "regular" novels, is because WotC novels are perceived as teen novels, and authors publishing for them are usually new or unknown authors that are starting out/ trying to make a name for themselves. No authors are going to create a masterpiece for them, they would most likely create one for TOR fantasy or another "big" fantasy publisher. There is also the fact that WotC release a new novel aabout every months or so. Rushed novels are never as good.

I think it's a shame. So, WotC is a targetting teens, but that doesn't mean teen can't enjoy or understand a complex novel. I wish a good author would write a good novel for them. It probably will never happen, thought. Writing a novel for an already established world, like Forgotten Realm or Dragonlance, seem very restricting, and I doubt Terry Goodking, for example, would ever want to work under such restrictions, if he ever felt like working fo them. WotC are also probably paying there authors a lot less than TOR does, so I doubt he would even consider it.

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by Luvian: </font><blockquote>Quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ziroc: </font><blockquote>Quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Luvian: Well.. you can't expect much from Wizard of the Coast novels. Most of them are like that. Especially Forgotten Realms ones. Did you know that Forgotten Realms was really inspired from a gaming session? Elminster and all where really once pcs.

Um, Luv.. There are MANY Forgotten Realms novels that are EXCELLENT! The Drizzt Books, the Avatar Trilogy IS a great series and the follow up books are as well. I've read over 100 FR and DL novels, and yeah, some suck, but many of them are awesome.

Try the Icewind Dale Trilogy next. It's a classic series!</font>[/QUOTE]I've read them, I own the first 50 Forgotten Realms novels and the recent Elminster in Hell novel. I also own 3 Dragonlance novels and have read about all of Dragonlance series, too.

Sure, some are nice, but they are mostly time filler, none of them are masterpieces. There are some good ones, but if you compare them to the work of authors like Sara Douglass, George R.R. Martin, Terry Goodkinds, and some of the work of Robert Jordan, you can see a huge difference in quality. To me, it's like comparing a Buffy: The vampire slayer novel to a Stephen King novel. While buffy can be interesting, it lack the dept and quality found in a Stephen King novel.

Personally, I think the reason Wizard of the Coast novels can never be as good as "regular" novels, is because WotC novels are perceived as teen novels, and authors publishing for them are usually new or unknown authors that are starting out/ trying to make a name for themselves. No authors are going to create a masterpiece for them, they would most likely create one for TOR fantasy or another "big" fantasy publisher. There is also the fact that WotC release a new novel aabout every months or so. Rushed novels are never as good.

I think it's a shame. So, WotC is a targetting teens, but that doesn't mean teen can't enjoy or understand a complex novel. I wish a good author would write a good novel for them. It probably will never happen, thought. Writing a novel for an already established world, like Forgotten Realm or Dragonlance, seem very restricting, and I doubt Terry Goodking, for example, would ever want to work under such restrictions, if he ever felt like working fo them. WotC are also probably paying there authors a lot less than TOR does, so I doubt he would even consider it.</font>[/QUOTE]Forgotten Realms novels are not all for teens. So what you are saying though, is because they have the 'Dungeons & Dragons' label, they are for the more immature person? I hope not. I too have read 100's upon 100's of non Forgotten Realms novels, and I can tell you that many of those suck just as bad. The Icewind Dale Trilogy is classic. The Avatar series was as well (NY Times best sellers).

Just because a book is published with a name that stereotypically is for teens, does not mean it's written down to teens. Take the Harry Potter series for instance. DEFINITELY for teens (even pre-teens), yet it's one of the great set of books many have read.

Hell, when I was young, I read nearly ALL of the Hardy boys books [img]smile.gif[/img] but what I think people should do is like what they like. everyone is different. But don't say that they all suck and are for kids. That is not right, and not right to the Author. (Well, you can piss on Ed Greenwoods books) lol, Elminster in hell WAS sucky.

[Luvian]

No, I'm saying that since Forgotten Realms is considered to be for teens, authors don't give their 100% when writing those novels.

Your Harry Potter example is a good one. While Harry Potter was made for teen, J. K. Rowling still gave his 100%, and created a rich and interesting world. While most Wizard of the Coast writers simply create a male character, give him some exceptional powers, add some softcore pornography, and consider that a novel.

Sure, there are some great Forgotten Realms books, I would not have bought that many otherwise. Some of my favorite are the Moonshae trilogy, the Druidhome Trilogy, the Finder's Stone Trilogy (The Wyvern's Spur was the first D&D novel I read), the Pools Trilogy, and the Avatar trilogy (the second one I read).

I also liked the Drizzt series in the first novels, but now, I feel like the series has become boring. The good guys are always winning. Nothing bad ever happen to them, I might as well watch the Smurf or Road Runner, it's the same thing but with different characters. Drizzt (as is Liriel) is too perfect. He is a drow, can't he at least have some flaws? I find reading about a perfect character to be uninteresting. I just can't associate to him. I am sometime greedy, I am sometime selfish, I sometime would like to hit people who annoy me, I am human. So I can't associate myself to a deva whith black skin and pointy ears.

Liriel is even worse. Drizzt never accepted his race, but Liriel was apriestess of loth. Can she be at least a little bit evil? Can't she have some flaws? And on another note, why does she always end up naked?

[ 04-12-2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by Luvian: No, I'm saying that since Forgotten Realms is considered to be for teens, authors don't give their 100% when writing those novels. Your Harry Potter example is a good one. While Harry Potter was made for teen, J. K. Rowling still gave his 100%, and created a rich and interesting world. While most Wizard of the Coast writers simply create a male character, give him some exceptional powers, add some softcore pornography, and consider that a novel. Sure, there are some great Forgotten Realms books, I would not have bought that many otherwise. Some of my favorite are the Moonshae trilogy, the Druidhome Trilogy, the Finder's Stone Trilogy (The Wyvern's Spur was the first D&D novel I read), the Pools Trilogy, and the Avatar trilogy (the second one I read). I also liked the Drizzt series in the first novels, but now, I feel like the series has become boring. The good guys are always winning. Nothing bad ever happen to them, I might as well watch the Smurf or Road Runner, it's the same thing but with different characters. Drizzt (as is Liriel) is too perfect. He is a drow, can't he at least have some flaws? I find reading about a perfect character to be uninteresting. I just can't associate to him. I am sometime greedy, I am sometime selfish, I sometime would like to hit people who annoy me, I am human. So I can't associate myself to a deva whith black skin and pointy ears. Liriel is even worse. Drizzt never accepted his race, but Liriel was apriestess of loth. Can she be at least a little bit evil? Can't she have some flaws? And on another note, why does she always end up naked?

Good reply, and great stuff said! I also loved each book you said was good. And the Moonshae series was really good--just re-read them last Month [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Now you say they don't give 100% because they are FOR teens, but from Authors I have talked to and read about, they put everything into each book they write. In a weird way, it's like their 'baby' and they really do care. It's just that some Author's 100% is another's 60% ya know?

BTW, I just finished "Cormyr: the Novel". God, that book sucked and was as boring as hell! I MAY burn it... or let [img]graemlins/choc.gif[/img] rip it up. lol!!