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Old 05-25-2002, 01:47 AM   #231
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

Yorick, would you trade the freedom of speech for security? Or the Freedom of religion for security? That's what that quote meant. Basic freedoms that are enjoyed by all citizens of this country.
Sometimes we indeed impose restiction on freedom of speech in order to NOT offend a friend. Someone who always "speaks their mind" can be considered offensive and rude.

The issue of speech that incites racial hatred is also a biggy. NeoNazi sites are banned in Germany for reasons we all know and love.

So these sites set themselves up in the 'free speech protected' USA. Creating sites, in German, for Germans, but broadcast from here.
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Old 05-25-2002, 07:18 AM   #232
Epona
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This is going way off topic (sorry) but just a thought-

Do you still have freedom of speech when a lot of what you say can end up getting your ass sued because people have the freedom to sue you?

This isn't a comment on freedom of speech, but was wondering how people viewed this. In my book, that isn't really freedom of speech - or is it? Bah, perhaps this should go in a new thread.

FWIW, we don't have a right to freedom of speech in the UK, although not a lot is made of that really. It's illegal to publish an incitement to racial hatred or holocaust denial.
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Old 05-25-2002, 08:41 AM   #233
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

Yorick, would you trade the freedom of speech for security? Or the Freedom of religion for security? That's what that quote meant. Basic freedoms that are enjoyed by all citizens of this country.
Sometimes we indeed impose restiction on freedom of speech in order to NOT offend a friend. Someone who always "speaks their mind" can be considered offensive and rude.

The issue of speech that incites racial hatred is also a biggy. NeoNazi sites are banned in Germany for reasons we all know and love.

So these sites set themselves up in the 'free speech protected' USA. Creating sites, in German, for Germans, but broadcast from here.
[/QUOTE]Yorick you are getting silly now, of course there are limitations on all the rights granted to us underthe constitution. Even the freedom of religion is limited, I know of a certified (by the state of california) religion that was disbanded by the state, it seems the locals did not like the fact that the religion promoted sex between the congregation and the high priestess, they revoked the religious status and charged the whole congregation with prostitution.

Driving on the roads in the USA is NOT a right, if you read your license carefully or ask the DMV it is a priveledge and thus is free to be limited in whatever fashion the government likes (no constitutional ammendment for freedom of driving)

The right to bear arms is like all other rights already restricted by laws and rules and we revoke the right in the case of a person becomming a felon...

It really appears that you have lost your steam and are just trying to continue an argument there guy.

Oh and just because YOU choose to limit your own right to free speech so as not to hurt a friends feelings...well that is nice, but is in no way a law that applies to every one, else I wouldnt be able to post here half the time!

[ 05-25-2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 05-25-2002, 08:47 AM   #234
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
This is going way off topic (sorry) but just a thought-

Do you still have freedom of speech when a lot of what you say can end up getting your ass sued because people have the freedom to sue you?

This isn't a comment on freedom of speech, but was wondering how people viewed this. In my book, that isn't really freedom of speech - or is it? Bah, perhaps this should go in a new thread.

FWIW, we don't have a right to freedom of speech in the UK, although not a lot is made of that really. It's illegal to publish an incitement to racial hatred or holocaust denial.
having a right (at least in the US) does not free you from the accountability of exercising that right, we have to accept responsibility for our actions...yes I know that isnt very popular these days but it is true. It isnt just true about speech, if you abuse your right to bear arms, you also have to accept those consequences.

As for the Law in the UK about it being illegal to deny the holocaust..that just strikes me as soooooo wrong...I mean what next? outlaw stupidity? They would loose their tax base in a hurry. I know I owuld chafe under such restrictions, not because I WOULD deny the holocaust happened (I know it did) but just the fact that there is a law saying I can't say anything about it.....very bad in my opinion.
 
Old 05-25-2002, 09:12 AM   #235
Epona
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: London, England
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
This is going way off topic (sorry) but just a thought-

Do you still have freedom of speech when a lot of what you say can end up getting your ass sued because people have the freedom to sue you?

This isn't a comment on freedom of speech, but was wondering how people viewed this. In my book, that isn't really freedom of speech - or is it? Bah, perhaps this should go in a new thread.

FWIW, we don't have a right to freedom of speech in the UK, although not a lot is made of that really. It's illegal to publish an incitement to racial hatred or holocaust denial.
having a right (at least in the US) does not free you from the accountability of exercising that right, we have to accept responsibility for our actions...yes I know that isnt very popular these days but it is true. It isnt just true about speech, if you abuse your right to bear arms, you also have to accept those consequences.

As for the Law in the UK about it being illegal to deny the holocaust..that just strikes me as soooooo wrong...I mean what next? outlaw stupidity? They would loose their tax base in a hurry. I know I owuld chafe under such restrictions, not because I WOULD deny the holocaust happened (I know it did) but just the fact that there is a law saying I can't say anything about it.....very bad in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]Your first paragraph - good answer, I hadn't thought of it that way, that certainly seems to be a good explanation.

Second para - well it's one law I agree with, and I think it puts the brakes on the growth of the extremist right (nazi) parties hence in my view it is worth that small restriction. I think it must be a cultural difference - don't think we've ever had total freedom of speech here, and it's not really viewed as a big thing here as it is in the US.
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Old 05-25-2002, 10:10 AM   #236
Attalus
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Sazerac, I believe the exact quote is, "Those who would trade freedom for security will end up with neither," and I believe the author was Benjamin Franklin. I am subject to correction on this. Yorick, there have always been practical limitations on freedom of speech, and, to quote another Founding Father, it does not include the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater. The right to bear arms was rooted in the Founding Fathers' instinctive distrust of central authority Remember, they had just successfully but bloodily rebelled against tyranny. The memory of the Minute Men was a very recent and vivid one for them. "The shot heard round the world" was fired by a musket hidden from the British but probably acquired for hunting and personal protection, just like 99% of guns in the U.S. right now.
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Old 05-25-2002, 12:31 PM   #237
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Attalus:
Sazerac, I believe the exact quote is, "Those who would trade freedom for security will end up with neither," and I believe the author was Benjamin Franklin. I am subject to correction on this. Yorick, there have always been practical limitations on freedom of speech, and, to quote another Founding Father, it does not include the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater. The right to bear arms was rooted in the Founding Fathers' instinctive distrust of central authority Remember, they had just successfully but bloodily rebelled against tyranny. The memory of the Minute Men was a very recent and vivid one for them. "The shot heard round the world" was fired by a musket hidden from the British but probably acquired for hunting and personal protection, just like 99% of guns in the U.S. right now.
I was going to say it Was Ben boy who had made that quote but you beat me to it [img]smile.gif[/img] I think one of the reasons (and I said ONE ) that so many people dont understand the second ammendment is that history, the history of this country has been edited out of the school system, the history of the USA isn't politicly correct and was filled with abuses and wrongs as well as great good, so rather than let people know the truth, its just been blanked out and ignored. If people really understood what their forefathers fought and died for and the how and why of it....I think things might be a little different...and better today.
 
Old 05-25-2002, 12:32 PM   #238
Yorick
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Times change. America is now vastly larger than Britain, both in land area and population. Technology has meant arms are way more destructive than they were. Democracy is also more prevalent throughout the world. Everything has grown, changed and moved except an this outdated law.

MagiK, no steam lost at all. To find the truth in a situation , the situation needs to be taken to it's logical extreme.

If it sounds ridiculous, it's becaue the generalised declaration is ridiculous.

I don't agree with the statement. That's all.
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Old 05-25-2002, 12:34 PM   #239
MagiK
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[quote]Originally posted by Epona:
Quote:
Second para - well it's one law I agree with, and I think it puts the brakes on the growth of the extremist right (nazi) parties hence in my view it is worth that small restriction. I think it must be a cultural difference - don't think we've ever had total freedom of speech here, and it's not really viewed as a big thing here as it is in the US.
I think it is a matter of what environment you were raised in maybe, like I said, I wouldnt likely want the right to say for example the holocaust didnt happen but the fact that there is a "LAW" to stop me...just irks me [img]smile.gif[/img] Call me stubborn..hehe (I know you would never have guessed). I also think that perhaps the Neo-Nazi movement is a bigger problem for you all over there, here they are just considered the lunatic fringe and are reletively harmless.....so far.
 
Old 05-25-2002, 03:54 PM   #240
Moiraine
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Magik, no wonder you can't grasp all the implications about the "holocaust didn't happen" affirmation over there in the U.S. Maybe the closest I could make it clearer to you is this : imagine some people started saying that there was no such thing as the Vietnam War.

Here in Western Europe, many many people are still suffering from the sequels of WWII, physically, emotionally, financially too. No French family came out of it unscathed. Many people died. Many people stayed crippled, physically and/or emotionally and are still alive to feel it and talk about it. Many people lost their family properties too - what would you do about the Jewish families who were spoiled of all they owned back then, their properties being later bought and being owned now by honest people - to whom do these properties rightly belong ?

As attached as I am to freedom of speech, making a law ensuring that saying such a thing is forbidden, is a matter of respect and dignity. For such an affirmation is turning all that the victims of the war have suffered into a mockery.

It is also a matter of responsibility. For as more and more of the WWII victims are getting very old and dying, in a few years there will be no witness left. I think, and many people here with me, that we must not allow these dreadful memories to fade and die, and the truth be twisted and forgotten. For fear of someday seeing a new holocaust happening with us being caught unaware.

And last, when our own neo-nazi party got more and more votes over the last years, most people here still dismissed it as you do, as a inconsequiental fact caused by a handful of lunies. Until the last presidential elections, when the leader of that party got more votes than the left-wing candidate, so we ultimately had to "choose" between the right-wing leader who is a known liar and thief, and the neo-nazi guy. What a choice ...

[ 05-25-2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]
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