Capitalism and Christianity

I stand by what I said. You know less than you think about Karma and grace, from what ive read.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: I stand by what I said. You know less than you think about Karma and grace, from what ive read.

I'm not talking about an individuals grace, but Grace. Christs Grace. The Grace that removes an individual from the consequence of spiritual Law - including that of Karma. This is the WHOLE POINT of Christs death. If you cannot understand that, youu have not grasped the whole point of him being here at all, the reason for his willing death, and why Christians put their faith in him.

But don't trust me. Go read about it from any other Christian theologian as to what Christs Grace enables.

Also, I've personally experienced it. Ah, but if you've never experienced it I'm wasting my time. It's like explaining breathing air to a fish



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: I'm not talking about an individuals grace, but Grace. Christs Grace. The Grace that removes an individual from the consequence of spiritual Law - including that of Karma. This is the WHOLE POINT of Christs death. If you cannot understand that, youu have not grasped the whole point of him being here at all, the reason for his willing death, and why Christians put their faith in him. But don't trust me. Go read about it from any other Christian theologian as to what Christs Grace enables. Also, I've personally experienced it. Ah, but if you've never experienced it I'm wasting my time. It's like explaining breathing air to a fish

I can accept that, Yorick.

Why can't you accept the possiblity that your understanding of the central principles of other religions might be incomplete?

When it comes to religion, you are coming across as completely and repulsively arrogant, whether you realize it or not.

I think your religious arrogance might betray a fundamental religious insecurity. It's as if you have to constantly put down other religions in order to keep yourself convinced that you follow the right one.


[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Yorick: What the hell is this Diogenes? I did not say I know everything about all religions. I have studied many in open minded depth however. Hinduism, Buddhism and it's various strands, Taoism, Bahaism, Theosophy etc etc. Why is this so difficult to accept? That a Christian can (shock horror) read another holy work!? That they can have an open mind? Reject other teachings on knowledge and not ignorance.? I stated that Buddhism "works" did I not? However it is a path I don't wish to follow. This is not worthlessness, but disagreement. Rejection. I have articulated some, but not all of my problems with these theologies, and surely shown these problems to be based on the theologies themselves, not the "rightness" of Christian theology. People can research law. They can become familiar with precedents, bylaws and amendments. They can specialise in contractual law, criminal law corperate law can they not? Why is it so hard to fathom that someone can devote time and energy to understanding many religious faiths in an attempt to find truth? In an effort to be certain ones own faith is truth. You have no idea the depth I have searched, the discourses I have entered into, and you dare mock me, mock my honest quest and subsequent conclusions. Why do I bother? I am disappointed by the sarcasm of your post. The vibes and attitude I have been recieving from you, G'kar and Silver Cheetah have flabbergasted me of late. Stay in your little shell then Diogenes. Be blind to alternate possibilities and ideas. Remain in the comfort zone that Christians are always your father and their small minded agendas are all the same, and something you will refute to your grave.

My objection to your attitude in regards to religion is your smug belief that you know all about other religions, and have decided objectively that Christianity is the true one.

I have refrained from attacking your religion, even though it certainly allows plenty of room for doing so, out of courtesy and respect for you and respect for other people's religious beliefs. You however, do not do the same. That is why I lost my temper and turned sarcastic on you.

In your words to G'Kar, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.



[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Regarding your comment about feeling attacked lately by me, Cheetah, and G'kar, it's interesting you should say that, because I have perceived a good deal of hostility from you lately.

This saddens me, because I do like you and feel we have much in common. But for whatever reason it seems we have been more typically at each others throats lately.

I would like to straighten things out between us. Up for a online chat sometime soon?

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Please explain the contradiction between Christainity and capitalism. Wealth is not a sin nor is the acumalation of wealth.

John, from my reading of the New Testament, Jesus taught among other things to give up virtually all worldly possessions in pursuit of the spiritual life. He thought that the pursuit of worldly possessions was a hindrance to true spirituality, as exemplified by such statements as "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven."

Now, this seems to contrast markedly with the "religion" of capitalism (and I agree with Yorick that capitalism itself can be seen as a religion), which preaches diametrically opposite things, namely how the purpose of existence is precisely to pursue worldly possessions.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Why can't you accept the possiblity that your understanding of the central principles of other religions might be incomplete? I think your religious arrogance might betray a fundamental religious insecurity. It's as if you have to constantly put down other religions in order to keep yourself convinced that you follow the right one.

G'kar is trying to tell me what the fundamental principle of my faith is Dio. Grace. To understand Grace fully, one must also understand law. It's akin to understanding freedom fully after internment or restriction.

Regarding my "arrogance", there is no insecurity. Odd that you would think it so. It is precisely the opposite my friend. Doubts and crisis of faith were things - are things - that I embrace as a precursor to a deeper level of understanding, not something I fear or remove myself from.

Regarding my "putting down" other religions, I post reactively, not proactively to ideas and theologies posted. I spent six months on here before people even knew I was Christian. I have actually shown restraint regarding my objections. Shown tolerance of other beliefs. I try wherever possible to challenge the central generic teaching, not an individuals interpretation. I respect anyones right to believe what they will. This respect must be mutual however. I am not pantheistic. Christ is not "one of the ways" one can take, but in my belief the only way. Tolerating my position is as important as me tolerating theirs.

I do care about others Dio. I care that others have not tasted Grace. I care that others are on a path to what I percieve as oblivion. I previously had no care for those that didn't want to know Christ. That was their business. Between them and God. It was arrogant of me to presume to impose my truth upon others. I knew where I was going and that's all that mattered. Consequently I only spoke of my theologies to fellow believers, taught in bible colleges, had fellowship with others on the same path.

However I have had a growing concern for others - especially after WTC. I have seen the spiritual ache and hunger in people I have spoken to that I'd have never thought possible. I've had people willing to hear, willing to open their minds in an attempt to find the same God I know. If I know him, who am I to keep that to myself? Knowing God has given me such inner peace, such joy, perception, creativity, love of life, friendliness, connection, thirst for knowledge, artistic appreciation and satisfaction, that I shouldn't be keeping that "secret" to myself. If I speak of it, and people reject it, so be it. At least I have opened my heart to them, and given them an option.

I now have to find a balance between offending, and yet adhering the growing impulses to speak.

These are my beliefs. Part of the things I have to compromise when practicing tolerance. Part of the things that in tolerating me, must also be accepted, if not agreed with.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: John, from my reading of the New Testament, Jesus taught among other things to give up virtually all worldly possessions in pursuit of the spiritual life. He thought that the pursuit of worldly possessions was a hindrance to true spirituality, as exemplified by such statements as "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Now, this seems to contrast markedly with the "religion" of capitalism (and I agree with Yorick that capitalism itself can be seen as a religion), which preaches diametrically opposite things, namely how the purpose of existence is precisely to pursue worldly possessions.

Dio, it's harder for a rich man, because money is often more important to the rich man - he has more to lose. One must be prepared to forsake anything in following Christ, but like Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac, doesn't necessarily have to forsake everything. Whatever the thing is one "cannot" give up for God, is the very thing they possibly need to.

One can possess money without worshiping or be a slave to it. It just gets more difficult as more is accumulated.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Forget it, G'kar. Yorick knows everything about all religions. He has studied them all in depth, understands them all thoroughly, and accurately concluded that they are all worthless except for Christianity. If you don't believe me, just ask him.

Dio, many people study and learn and come to the conclusion that one thing is better than another. I may be open and wiling to listen, but I too believe my way is right. Doesn't mean I foist in on those not interested, or try to convert you, but yes, I do believe Christianity is the right way. Why else would I follow it? Why do you follow YOUR system of beliefs? Why do most people?

Just because we do have a prefered system doesn't mean we don't allow others to have theirs. Likewise, because I am openminded doesn't mean I'm going to convert from my own or think another way is equal to my own. It's a fact of life, we can't always be politically correct and I'm not sure we should be. Sometimes it is right to just stand up, say I HAVE A BELIEF and be counted, even if it separates us from the crowd.

And to avoid the inevitable flames - believing one is following the correct/right path, doesn't mean you have to 'look down' on anyone else's choices. Just that you think your own is right. I know mine is right for me, but I can't recall roping anyone here and hogtying them to my chapel steps...ooooooooh..now that's an image....er.. ahem.. sorry my mind just detoured to the gutter..

Baaaaad Cloudy....naughty Cloud......

Uh..sorry Yorick......

Cloudbringer, off to figure out how you wash a mind out with soap ..hehe

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Jafin: You have an interesting question/idea/whatever here. Jesus never taught that you can't have personal wealth. He taught that whatever you do, you should follow God's will for your life. I am a Christian, I have been all my life and I will for the rest of my life, nobody can shake me from that. I am also an advocate of capitalism. That doesn't mean that I worship capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system, not a religion (well to some it is ). There is nothing in the Bible that forbades monetary wealth, so long as it doesn't rise in importance above God. Daniel in the Old Testament was a wealthy man, but he was a man of God. There are many men of God alive today who have monetary and materialistic wealth. Nothing is forbidding me from it. Personally, I pray to God that he'll aid in my gaining of wealth so I can live a comfortable, maybe luxurious life. However, I just gotta keep God first. -Jafin

Jafin, I am glad you posted this. And yes, definitely, the keeping GOD first part is the primary requirement. I think sometimes people forget that and when they do, the world sees the worst kind of pseudo-Christian which reflects badly on those of us who keep low profiles and try to do what we know is right and expected of us as Christians.

Nice to see someone who practices what we are supposed to believe. Makes me feel better to see posts like this. I was getting very depressed over many of the threads now in progress. I always feel like only the worst cases are ever refered to in the discussions and that leaves the faithful looking bad too.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."