Kazaa (!) Sues Movie, Recording Industries

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: its really utter BS the crap that kazza and other p2p programs go through the technology has existed for a Loooong time to aquire music/movies for free; it hasnt negatively affected their sales yet and it probably wont for a long time to come. Just go buy some cassette tapes or video tapes and record the old fashioned way from the tv and radio; same thing as kazaa prety much. and as a P.S. ive actualy downloaded many songs/videos from kaza and like programs...but this believe it or not Stimulated my interested in a band/artist/movie enough to BUY a CD/DVD; amazing, free marketing and theyre against it /sigh

The difference with cassettes was that you still had to have access to an original hard copy to make copy. You could then copy the copy, but quality went dramatically downhill each time, after only a few copies, you'd be hearing more hiss that music. This is why the industry did not go under - there were only certain limits it could be taken to.
Also a tax was built in to blank cassette prices to compensate for piracy.

The difference with videos is that the show you tape is either commercial free-to-air (already paid for by advertisers) government free-to-air (already paid for by you) or pay tv (already paid for by the consumer).
In these cases you are not actually stealing income from the content producers or the broadcasters. You are breaking the law only, not depriving someone of their income.

What the concern is, is where this is all leading. You can't say that because it didn't happen in the past, it won't happen now.

The trend is shifting. Those younger kids will all grow up and likely all have cable/high speed connections as they get older. They will be used to getting any movie, any song, any album, any piece of software etc... they want with out paying for it.
Then they have kids....

What is wrong with these industries protecting themselves against utter decimation before it occurs.

Again, anyone who wants to argue this, first you come up with original ideas, spend most of your life on them, often surviving with very little to pursue your passions, then register your ideas so that you can make a living doing what you are skilled at. Then have people steal your ideas, some of them selling them for their own profit.
Then watch as they get angry at you that you would dare charge them for your ideas and dare try to stop them from stealing them...

[Bardan the Slayer]

Okay,before i make my long-winded reply, I have to set out my stall so you can all know what direction I'm coming from, ok?

I am not into music. I never listen to CDs, i never download mp3's. It is totally uninteresting to me. The only music I hear comes from films i watch. My answer to the question "Why do you not download music?" is exactly the same as my answer to "Why do you not buy CDs?" - I simply have no interest in doing so.

Now, no matter how interesting you all find it to read about me, i guess some small-minded people out there will actually be more interested in seeing me answer the question, damn you all

Piracy is a problem, and people downloading music for free without the author's consent and without paying for it are quite simply in the wrong. The musicians spend time and effort on prouducing their creations, which they own as surely as you would own the cupboard you made from scratch. Just as I would object to someone entering my home and appropriating my home-made cupboard, so I assume the artists would object to someone stealing their possessions.

So why do people do it? Well, I see two types of people who do this sort of thing. The first is the type who downloads things for a few reasons - they can't afford to buy the CDs, or they have some inherent dislike of the record companies that get a stupendous and unreasonably large percentage of the sale price.

The second is simply the mass downloader. They DL it because it is free, they want it, and they can have it for nothing.

Obviously, a missed sale is a missed sale, and in that respect it makes no difference, but i feel a touch more sympathy for the first type. The people who make the most money from music are not the artists, but the people in suits who have never touched an instrument in their lives. However, it is still wrong.

So, you think I am totally in favour of Kazaa being shut down? No. My reasons are simple. Kazaa is a file-sharing system, and once you dictate that no matter what legal purposes it is used for, because it is also used for illegal purposes it must be shut down, you are on dangerous ground. Are we going to start suing gun companies because their creations maim and kill thousands? How about people who produce and sell screwdrivers, because they are used to stab people sometimes? Hey - I heard that a man was killed with a golf club yesterday. We have to control golf clubs now.

I think it's the start of a slippery slope. I completely agree with the man that says he wrote a book, he invested time and effort in it, and he wants monetary reward form each person wanting to read it. *However*, what is next? Today the record companies are banning/hamstringing file-sharing. Tomorrow they are preventing you from making legal, home-use only backups. Then they are putting software in your computer to track if you are downloading mp3s. That we use kazaa, cd-rewriters and computers for perfectly legal means is unimportant. The rights of all the law-abiders are becoming increasingly infringed in order to catch the criminals.

Don't start with "What have you got to hide?" I have nothing to hide - i have something to protect - my privacy. My right to be assumed to be using a legal means of file transfer for legal purposes - in other words to be presumed innocent - rather than having fileshare software outlawed because of the people who abuse it. I hear from the gun-lobby that it is wrong to ban guns because it would be an injustice to the law-abiding gun owners (and this is in the UK, where there were fewer law-abiding gun owners than illegal-gun-owning criminals before they were totally banned). If people died through misuse of file-sharing, i would see the point in strict control, but i have yet to see the headline "Musician dies, bloody fileshare found dumped nearby."

All over the internet, you can see peoples' winamp generated playlists. Naturally, the music companies will say that this is a way of people posting adverts for personal filesharing/swapping. Will it become illegal to mention what music you own on the internet because it might entice them to ask you for a copy? When will they install the software on your computer to monitor everything that goes through your connection?

How long will it be until libraries start having to charge the public because the music and publishing industries demand payback, since libraries obviously encourage piracy? Anybody can walk into a library and get a copy of LotR (book) to read. How long before this is seen as a violation of the author's rights?

Also, i notice that i hear alot of rich, influential people complaining that record companies are losing money because of filesharing of music files (or films). I must say that i haven't lately seen people causing such a fuss over child pornography. That is a big problem on P2P networks, but then no industry loses money to child pornography, and in today's world of big-business first, people second, that is unimportant. After all, protecting the capitalistic aims of the mega-companies is far more important than protecting young people from sexual abuse, isn't it? Let's not waste time chasing the filesharers for encouraging paedophilia (which i would have alot more sympathy for). No, lets go after them for costing the music industry money.

Is it terribly unfair that the artists lose out from the piracy on filesharing networks. Yes. Is it wrong to download music for free that another person created? Yes. Is it right to let the large corporations gradually steal away our right to privacy to prevent this - no. We're not at that point yet, but we're getting there, and every court case won by the music industry against fileshare programs like Kazaa brings us that little bit closer.

Here's an analogy for my opinions. I disagree with parents smacking their children. I think it is assault, and i don't think it works. It encourages violence, especially violence towards children. Do I want it banned? NO! Why? Because when you ban a parent's right to enfore discipline through a smack on the hand, it's not long before you're getting arrested for sending them to bed with no supper. Then you're getting arrested for not giving them the right foods. Then your child is taken from you at brth because you probably wouldn't treat them right.

Many of these issues are slippery slopes. The initial step may seem logical, but before you know it you're fighting for your rights.

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: **SNIP**

*cheers loudly*

[img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Okay,before i make my long-winded reply, I have to set out my stall so you can all know what direction I'm coming from, ok? I am not into music. I never listen to CDs, i never download mp3's. It is totally uninteresting to me. The only music I hear comes from films i watch. My answer to the question "Why do you not download music?" is exactly the same as my answer to "Why do you not buy CDs?" - I simply have no interest in doing so. Now, no matter how interesting you all find it to read about me, i guess some small-minded people out there will actually be more interested in seeing me answer the question, damn you all Piracy is a problem, and people downloading music for free without the author's consent and without paying for it are quite simply in the wrong. The musicians spend time and effort on prouducing their creations, which they own as surely as you would own the cupboard you made from scratch. Just as I would object to someone entering my home and appropriating my home-made cupboard, so I assume the artists would object to someone stealing their possessions. So why do people do it? Well, I see two types of people who do this sort of thing. The first is the type who downloads things for a few reasons - they can't afford to buy the CDs, or they have some inherent dislike of the record companies that get a stupendous and unreasonably large percentage of the sale price. The second is simply the mass downloader. They DL it because it is free, they want it, and they can have it for nothing. Obviously, a missed sale is a missed sale, and in that respect it makes no difference, but i feel a touch more sympathy for the first type. The people who make the most money from music are not the artists, but the people in suits who have never touched an instrument in their lives. However, it is still wrong. So, you think I am totally in favour of Kazaa being shut down? No. My reasons are simple. Kazaa is a file-sharing system, and once you dictate that no matter what legal purposes it is used for, because it is also used for illegal purposes it must be shut down, you are on dangerous ground. Are we going to start suing gun companies because their creations maim and kill thousands? How about people who produce and sell screwdrivers, because they are used to stab people sometimes? Hey - I heard that a man was killed with a golf club yesterday. We have to control golf clubs now. I think it's the start of a slippery slope. I completely agree with the man that says he wrote a book, he invested time and effort in it, and he wants monetary reward form each person wanting to read it. *However*, what is next? Today the record companies are banning/hamstringing file-sharing. Tomorrow they are preventing you from making legal, home-use only backups. Then they are putting software in your computer to track if you are downloading mp3s. That we use kazaa, cd-rewriters and computers for perfectly legal means is unimportant. The rights of all the law-abiders are becoming increasingly infringed in order to catch the criminals. Don't start with "What have you got to hide?" I have nothing to hide - i have something to protect - my privacy. My right to be assumed to be using a legal means of file transfer for legal purposes - in other words to be presumed innocent - rather than having fileshare software outlawed because of the people who abuse it. I hear from the gun-lobby that it is wrong to ban guns because it would be an injustice to the law-abiding gun owners (and this is in the UK, where there were fewer law-abiding gun owners than illegal-gun-owning criminals before they were totally banned). If people died through misuse of file-sharing, i would see the point in strict control, but i have yet to see the headline "Musician dies, bloody fileshare found dumped nearby." All over the internet, you can see peoples' winamp generated playlists. Naturally, the music companies will say that this is a way of people posting adverts for personal filesharing/swapping. Will it become illegal to mention what music you own on the internet because it might entice them to ask you for a copy? When will they install the software on your computer to monitor everything that goes through your connection? How long will it be until libraries start having to charge the public because the music and publishing industries demand payback, since libraries obviously encourage piracy? Anybody can walk into a library and get a copy of LotR (book) to read. How long before this is seen as a violation of the author's rights? Also, i notice that i hear alot of rich, influential people complaining that record companies are losing money because of filesharing of music files (or films). I must say that i haven't lately seen people causing such a fuss over child pornography. That is a big problem on P2P networks, but then no industry loses money to child pornography, and in today's world of big-business first, people second, that is unimportant. After all, protecting the capitalistic aims of the mega-companies is far more important than protecting young people from sexual abuse, isn't it? Let's not waste time chasing the filesharers for encouraging paedophilia (which i would have alot more sympathy for). No, lets go after them for costing the music industry money. Is it terribly unfair that the artists lose out from the piracy on filesharing networks. Yes. Is it wrong to download music for free that another person created? Yes. Is it right to let the large corporations gradually steal away our right to privacy to prevent this - no. We're not at that point yet, but we're getting there, and every court case won by the music industry against fileshare programs like Kazaa brings us that little bit closer. Here's an analogy for my opinions. I disagree with parents smacking their children. I think it is assault, and i don't think it works. It encourages violence, especially violence towards children. Do I want it banned? NO! Why? Because when you ban a parent's right to enfore discipline through a smack on the hand, it's not long before you're getting arrested for sending them to bed with no supper. Then you're getting arrested for not giving them the right foods. Then your child is taken from you at brth because you probably wouldn't treat them right. Many of these issues are slippery slopes. The initial step may seem logical, but before you know it you're fighting for your rights.

You're seeing inevitability where none need exist. Imposing a traffic law that reduces a persons speeds in a car does not mean laws governing walking, speaking or breathing speeds follow. Banning parents smacking kids doesn' mean laws banning supper punishment follow. There is a line there. Physical. Painful physical contact punishment.

Regarding gun companies, I think they should be sued if their product is used to kill someone. It's not made to cook their dinner is it. only one point to a gun. One reason for it's existence. Same with file sharing. It's prime use is illegal theft of artists work. Should be shut down.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Well I don´t know about you guys but after downloading MP3´s I have been buying more CD´s then ever... :S

Same here... I've bought over 100 CD's in the last 8 months of 2002 alone. [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

[WOLFGIR]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Well I don´t know about you guys but after downloading MP3´s I have been buying more CD´s then ever... :S

Same here... I've bought over 100 CD's in the last 8 months of 2002 alone. [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I hear ya buddy!

I´m of the opinion that if I want to watch a movie, I sit in my sofa in front of my 32" TV set and sipping a coffee of whiskey enjoying the movie. Or I go to the cinema.

I have seen some movies downloaded. Takes alot of time, and the quality is crap. Fortunately the movies I have seen has been "Thank gods or mercy I didn´t pay for that ******** crap" more or less. Now I have plenty of DVD´s at home as well. Why? Because I like qulity, both in picture and in sound. Download MP3´s and you get a compressed file that doesn´t really live up to the standards of quality I want. So if it is good I buy the CD, or if it is not so good, it is a waste of HD memory.

[lethoso]

just out of interest yorick, seeing as you most likely have a better idea of this than me, how much does and artist make off the sale of a cd?

and also, how has live concert attendance/profits gone since the proliferation of mp3s on the internet....

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Yorick: Same with file sharing. It's prime use is illegal theft of artists work. Should be shut down.

It is extremely popular is it not? Are you angered by the file-sharing or the artist not getting paid?

Why not take monetary advantage of that popularity and from the gains give the artist their just due?

Filesharing is the new recording industry.. it just doesn't know it yet.

[ 01-31-2003, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

[Djinn Raffo]

It's CD's that i have a problem with.

I like md's much more to be honest.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: It's CD's that i have a problem with. I like md's much more to be honest.

MDs don't play all frequencies all the time. You can lose harmonics. Not as good as CDs. Also mp3s sound inferior to CD. CDs are the ulltimate consumer sound at the moment. Although the sound is still better when you're making the product. 32bit soundfiles with 96k sample rate. A CD is 16bit at 44.1k sample rate. mp3s have greater degradation again.