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Old 03-11-2001, 11:37 PM   #101
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by JJ/newbie:
Besides helping to free Kuwait from saddam hussein and getting sick on the prime minister of japan, I am not sure what else bush sr. did overseas.
Unfortunately it could be argued that the west helped create the Iraqi problem. Did not the British create Kuwait when they moved out? It just happened to be over a huge amount of oil right? Was not Saddam the U.S. friend vs Iran? did they not sell him arms to fight their common foe? Echos of Frankenstien could be heard here I'm sure
Also as much as Noriega may have been up to his knees in drug deals, he was still the leader of an independant nation (however rightly or wrongly - that is not the issue) when Bush arrested him.

You'd know more about these guys I'm sure JJ, and I have a cynical view of world leaders anyway, so as much as I'm stirring the pot I'll acknowledge that no system or individual is perfect, and most have elements in their favour.

Also I'm very glad that the U.S. soldiers made the stand they did (Hellfire, Turbovee etc) but I've heard though that Stormin' Norman wanted to finish the job and cut off the snakes head, but that Bush prevented this. Am I wrong?

Check out the David Baerwald record "Triage" for some 'subversive' sentiment from the Bush era.

Man. I'd better stop. The world could be much worse than it is. I don't want folks like Donut to sleep uneasy.


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FAIR DINKUM!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 03-11-2001).]
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Old 03-12-2001, 12:54 AM   #102
JJ/newbie
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Yorick, you are correct about the US helping to arm iraq in its fight against iran. Your comments brought back vividly a speech topic i had in highschool, should the u.s. trade bullets for oil in the iran-iraq war? I did speech and debate in school, which is where i first developed my interest in politics and speaking out (spouting off?) That was in 1980, and Carter was president then.
Yes, Bush did stop them from eliminating saddam, a decision I did not agree with. Only left the root of the problem hanging around.
Here in the U.S., the growing problem is that of entitlement- people think they are entitled to things, to have the government provide them. Forgetting the basis upon which we were founded, the right of the individual to PERSUE life, liberty and happiness. Never was it written that you would get it, only that you would have the opportunity to get it. Those who look to the government to fix or solve all their problems usually only succeed in creating more government. That government then says that they will be able to fix it only if you give up some of your freedom (and money). Some examples - burning the flag - those who want to make it illegal would in fact have to abridge or actually put limits on the right to free speech. I personally vehemently disagree with the act, but if I give the government the right to curtail that part of our freedom, when is the next bite coming out? You start a slippery slope that ends in totalitarian regimes like the old sov. union or chinese communists, where those who speak against those in the govt. end up dead or missing. The right to keep and bear arms is another one, that is in the process of being taken away by those incompletely aware or deliberately ignorant of why and how this country was founded.

Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

One thing most politicians hate is a well informed and vocal electorate, Yorick, and I would hazard a guess that it is a phenomenon not restricted to our country. If people just sit there with hands out for the government to put something in it, mouths hanging slack for the media to spoonfeed their version of events into it, they become sheep for shearing and lambs for the slaughter.

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When given a choice, take both.
 
Old 03-12-2001, 01:34 AM   #103
turbovee
Elminster
 

Join Date: March 2, 2001
Location: Eglin AFB Florida
Posts: 471
Politicians and politics are corrupt by their very nature. You have to grease someone's palms along the way to get on top.

The old addage "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

No politician is ever going to be perfect. Its just the least corrupt ones that we hope to get. The Presidency along with any other major election has been nothing more than a sheer popularity contest.

Why did George Bush Sr. take Dan Quayle for Vice President? For his outstanding political accomplishments? NO. He took him because his advisors said it would make him more appealing to women. When Carter won the presidency in 1976 he had hardly any chance according to his political background, but he was made out to be the nice farm boy next door by his ad campaigns and he won handedly. Reagan had the country in his pocket when his ads came on tv. he spent more than any other presidential candidate in history on tv campaigns. He also had the history of being a famous actor. Carter was a good President, but he was outdone by Reagan's charisma. Bill Clinton won the same way. He had no real accomplishments other than a trail of scandals from Arkansas. He goes on MTV, plays the saxophone, answers questions about his drug use and wins over the young audience and the election. Bush Sr. could have very well been riding on the coattails of Reagan and his popularity, but he was also the head of the CIA. Who knows?
A UCLA study during each election since 1980 asked a group of people from each state to pick a winner by looks alone and that person won the election every time. The fact is that even though Bush is in the White House now, we would get the same media blasting as if Gore had made it. I know who I voted for and it still wouldn't have mattered, because someone else will always be unhappy with the decision.

Every President since Lincoln has had their share of scandal and controversy. Its just the ones who got away with stuff or we didn't find out about it that we liked the most. Reagan will go down as one of the greatest Presidents in history, but he had secrets that we would likely hang him for if we found out about them. We can sit here and bitch and moan about past, present and future Presidents, but the fact remains that politicians will always have the upper hand and do what they can get away with.

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Peace and hair grease
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Old 03-12-2001, 02:16 AM   #104
JJ/newbie
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Amen, B, Amen. As long as we stay on top of the scoundrels, and don't let them get away with as much stuff as they try to or want to Turbo, that's the way of it.
I refer back to my definition of character - If we always make sure they think we are watching, they will not try to get away with as much in the first place.
Misdeeds of those who claim otherwise will always be fertile ground for the
Don Quixote chapter of Diogene's Torch.

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When given a choice, take both.
 
Old 03-12-2001, 05:02 AM   #105
Donut
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 39
Posts: 5,571
Lord's test starts on 19th July. Keep your eyes open.

No need for anyone to worry about my sleep. I'm going to solve the problem of my decreased security by buying a gun.

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Old 03-12-2001, 06:16 AM   #106
Sir Taliesin
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Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,641
Hey Donut,

Aren't you from England. I thought you weren't allowed to defend yourself over there anymore?

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Sir Taliesin

Ten Rings there are, and nine gold torcs on the battlechiefs of old...
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Old 03-12-2001, 06:27 AM   #107
Donut
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 39
Posts: 5,571
Many have made the mistake of thinking so.

Anyway I'm with you on this one. Having a gun will make me feel big and make people fear me.

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Old 03-12-2001, 06:29 AM   #108
Sir_Tainly
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
Having a gun will make me feel big and make people fear me.

Only if they don't have a bigger gun themselves.


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Old 03-12-2001, 06:38 AM   #109
Cloudbringer
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Upstate NY USA
Posts: 19,737
Turbo! Hey leaderbosself! Bravo! Hear hear! And Good for you! Uh, yes, that means I agree with you! Nicely said, too.

Donut- Ack! Put that gun away, before you add another hole you don't need!

Sir Tainly- Too true.

CB
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Old 03-12-2001, 06:42 AM   #110
Sir_Tainly
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Posts: n/a
Hi Cloudy,

Just to back up my last point Donut - I keep a howitzer in my flat


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