Parts of the Old Testament proven true

[Gnarf]

Er, tell me if I mis reading your post here, but there are only [i] four (!) [i] mentions of Muhammad in the ENTIRe Koran?

As the Koran is claimed to be dictated from god, to Muhammad, most stuff written about Muhammad will then, even though it may be very important to the religion, not be a part of the Koran.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by Gnarf: quote: Er, tell me if I mis reading your post here, but there are only [i] four (!) [i] mentions of Muhammad in the ENTIRe Koran?

As the Koran is claimed to be dictated from god, to Muhammad, most stuff written about Muhammad will then, even though it may be very important to the religion, not be a part of the Koran. [/QUOTE]As well as the fact that Muhammad wasn't a famous religious character yet when he recieved the Qu'ran, while Moses and Jesus were.

[Melusine]

Duh... of course, Mohammed or Muhammed is said to have received the words for the Qu'ran directly from God. Figures he won't be in it an awful lot himself. But I think this actually demonstrates how little most people know of the Islam, even if some of them profess to do so. Yorick is the only one I know who studied the Qu'ran itself.

[ 09-26-2003, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[johnny]

Thanks Yorick, i didn't know the Koran also mentioned Adam. Shows how much i know about the whole thing.

[Yorick]

No worries [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm reading a book at the moment called "The Islamic Jesus" which explores the stories, tales and sayings in Islamic writings and traditions, which collectively are informally known by some as "the Muslim gospel".

It explored the mentions of him in the Qu'ran and the theological implications, but it also explores the various Hadiths which contain stories and sayings of Jesus.

The Qu'ran, as stated, was purported to be dictated to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, as a book divinely written by Allah in heaven.

The Hadiths by contrast are records of Muhammads personal teachings. There are also Hadiths from other sources although most of these have been marginalised over time as the Muhammadian Hadiths gained preminence.

Consequently there are many tales, wisdoms and traditions within Islamic traditional thinking that are outside the Qu'ran - though the Qu'ran is the foundation of all this thought. Jesus (or Isa) is extremely highly regarded in this thought.

Fascinating really. Jesus is such an amazing figure whether you accept his Godhood or not. For a Jew who spent 3 years teaching and healing in a remote part of the Roman empire to have such an impact on the entire world is incredible. He has a role in Islam at the end of time. A prevalent Muslim idea is that Jesus is still alive in heaven and will return at the end of time.

I firmly believe Y'shua to be God on earth. Fully God, fully human. But exploring different perceptions of him only emphasise what an incredible man he was.

[*\Conan/*]

Hugh, just to jump back a bit I think it's great that this site was finally accredited and recognized. There are many more to go and I think that this is a great age that we live in with all the technology we have to prove arcitectual digs and finds. It values people, lives, and history...cuts through much of the heresay, and correctly places events and truth at times.

Here is the find of the day, although it does not have much to do with the Old Testament, it is exciting.. for some;

Pre-Incan Silver Mining in S. America

A study of sediment from a lake in the Andes Mountains suggests that people living nearby were mining and using silver 400 years before the Incas began smelting the precious metal in the 1400s.

The study, appearing in the journal Science, found evidence that silver was mined from a rich belt at Cerro Rico long before the Incas controlled the area.

"Although legend attributes the discovery of silver at Cerro Rico to the 11th Inca ruler . . . in the mid-15th century, our data suggests the deposit was known and exploited . . . as early as the 11th century," the researchers reported.

Before the Incas, another culture, the Tiwanaku, lived in the area.

Based on sediment specimens cored from the bottom of a lake, Mark B. Abbott of the University of Pittsburgh and Alexander P. Wolfe of the University of Alberta in Edmonton estimated that silver mining started in the Cerro Rico area about the year 1000.

What happened to the early silver artifacts? The researchers suspect looting "before and after European contact."

I posted this article mostly to show that even some of the best scholars can get it wrong.

Back to the Qur'an then. I am far from an expert or even novice on this subject I would like to share this about it.

For Muslims the Qur’an is alive and has a quasi-human personality. I have met a lot of people from India who do not change in their bedrooms in deference to and respect for the fact that “there is a copy of the Qur’an on the top shelf”. The Qur’an, Muslims believe, watches over us and will intercede with God for us on the Day of Judgement.

In addition to the solace that the Qur’an promises to provide to the believers in the Hereafter, Muslims find in its recitation an enormous source of comfort and healing in this world. It is recited at the bedside of the ill and when they depart from this world, to ease the passage of the departed soul into the next and to provide comfort to those who are left behind.

The ‘proper noun’ sense of qur’an in the Qur’an is that of a fundamentally oral and certainly an active ongoing reality, rather then that of a ‘written and closed’ codex such as it later represented by the masahif

For the vast majority of Muslims today, recitation or listening to Qur’an is instinctual.

Revelations, in slightly varying modes, continued over a period of 23 years until shortly before Muhammad’s departure from this world in 632. Long and short pieces were invariably responses to the various challenges, personal or socio-political, which he and his followers faced.

[Atrayu]

My interpretation of the mufassirun (exegetes) and fuqaha represent scribes and pharacies.in the Old Testament. Furthermore, tentative interpretative activitys and “meaning” are thus, of necessity, also tentative and no tafsir or ta’wil is value free. Social importance is to seek “personal” experience although confined to ones self.

Imho Muslims are desperate to make contemporaneous sense of the speech of God in the midst of active struggles for justice where a significant contribution to the discipline will be found.

(How is everything going buddy? [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Atrayu

[Firestormalpha]

Umm Atrayu, I read on the college level and I still don't have a clue what you just said.

[*\Conan/*]

Hey Atrayu! Sorry Firestormalpha ... I think the point he is making is that the Qur’an is coded. Even those that dedicate their lives to it spend countless hours going over the array of metaphors. Although I do understand your last statement Atrayu, I have very little, if any experience with the orthodox or jurists interpretive of the Qur’an. I do know that any reading of the Qur’an is eisegetical before it is exegetical: eisegesis is really the flip side of exegesis rather that a distortion thereof.

[Burner]

Originally posted by Firestormalpha: P.S. historically any atheist who has set out to disprove the Bible, and has taken the results of their own research seriously has found it utterly factual. C.S. Lewis for one examle IIRC. [/QB]

Oh please. What criteria are you using for "taking the results of their research seriously", they wound up finding it factual? I suppose anybody who didn't wasn't taking their own research seriously? That's a bit like saying "if you had good sense, you'd agree with me" isn't it?

Some things in the Bible are clearly true, there was/is such a city as Jerusalem, there was a King named David, etc.. But you can't infer from these facts that everything people said about them was true. There's a real city called New York, but that doesn't make the stories about alligators living in the sewers true. I don't think anybody's claimed that the Bible is one lie after another and nothing in it can be believed, but the things there are proof of are not the matters that seem the most important to Christians.

The Bible contains some history, but it's not a history book. Its main concern is religion and morals, and it seems to me that religious folks who try to make it a textbook are creating unnecessary problems for themselves. That's especially noticeable when they try to make it out to be a science book. Does anybody really think Joshua stopped the sun in the sky? If the story of the ark is true, kindly explain how polar bears and kangaroos got to the Sinai Desert and back again? I could go on, but you get the idea.

The thing is, I don't think it's necessary that everything in the Bible be literally true for the Bible to have merit as a guide to how you should live. You don't have to believe in talking animals to derive moral lessons from Aesop's fables and you don't have to believe in the story of the parting of the Red Sea to recognize that "Thou shalt not kill" is a good rule to live by. I don't personally believe in anything in the Bible beyond the things that are verified elsewhere(existence of Jerusalem, etc.), but a lot of people I know get a lot of comfort and moral strength from it. Having said that, however, proof that places, events and people mentioned in the Bible existed is not proof of the existence of God, or of the validity of any religion.

Burner