05-23-2006, 04:45 AM | #1 | |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: February 28, 2001
Location: Boston/Sydney
Posts: 11,771
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Right, let's get some bloody debate happening here, to try and avert Z from shutting down this forum.
. All across Europe governments are tightening the regulations on immigrants, after recent riots and discord involving disaffected Muslim youths in France, assassinations of politicians in Holland, riots following the Mohammad cartoons and the recent home-grown Muslim terrorist attack in London. . Basically this is what the European governments want, before they will accept immigrants into their countries (I will summarise the article below in case some of you are too lazy to read it - although it's fascinating and informative): . - they want immigrants to respect Western values and ways of life (eg nudity, homosexuality, freedom of speech, etc) - they want immigrants to learn the languages of where they're going to make it easier for them to find jobs - they want immigrants to realise that if they move to a Euro country that they at least try and assimilate themselves into the culture of that country - if immigrants cannot do any of the above, then the reasoning is that they will be unhappy in the country and should not be there . I'm interested in people's views on this, particularly our European members. Unfortunately we don't seem to have any members who are of the Islamic faith - I'd love to hear their views on this. I have posted this on my cricket forum, where there is a sizeable Muslim community and will try and post their opinions here to provide some perspective. But for now: are these "requirements" reasonable or is Europe being unfair? . Quote:
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05-23-2006, 08:03 AM | #2 |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Midlands, South Carolina
Age: 48
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Glad to see that the US is not the only ones trying to protect their way of life within their own borders.
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05-23-2006, 08:55 AM | #3 |
Dracolich
Join Date: January 24, 2004
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 3,092
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Very interesting article indeed.
The only flaw with tackling it like this is that it does nothing to address the illegal immigration - those who won't go to an embassy to watch a video. Illegals are the worst integrators by definition and tough laws like this shouldn't be allowed to deflect attention away from the many hundreds of thousands of people who the government simply doesn't know about. Some very interesting ideas there though and I certainly would support most of them. Perhaps the 'tolerance video' should be applied to the current population of the UK too and we could have a spring cleaning. [img]tongue.gif[/img] |
05-23-2006, 09:39 AM | #4 |
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
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HAHAHAHAHA!!! This is awesome!!
It's funny to watch the US get on the news every night with immigration, now it seems everyone is doing it. A new age of isolationism, nationalism and xenophobia seems to be the order of the day, and I for one am ALL FOR IT! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] |
05-24-2006, 04:59 AM | #5 |
The Magister
Join Date: September 29, 2003
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 146
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I'm not all that happy with tighter immigration control. The process is arbitrary and expensive (at least in my country, Sweden). The issues we should deal with here are IMHO twofold and not quite whats in that article:
Employment: Make it easier to employ immigrants (and others) by reducing the cost and risk for employers. After taxes and "social fees" an employee gets to keep less than 40% of what the employer paid. It's also way too hard to fire people. This makes companies reluctant to employ, and if they employ they go for safe bets, ie 30yo white males. In the case of immigrants we should also give them work permits right away, even before their right to stay indefinitely is validated. If someone wants to work rather than live on handouts, why not let them? Make the visa/asylum process faster and more transparent: It can take 3-5 years before the incompetent migrations board determines if you are allowed to stay or not, which causes uncertainty and unnecessary suffering. I've personally seen a routine family reunion case (my Singaporean gf) drag out so long that her initial 2-year permit expired, a case where the actual "investigation" took a whopping 30 minutes once these idiots got around to conducting an interview. This is piled up incompetence, nothing else. Even if you are to be kicked out it is better to be told that early rather than getting half settled before being pulled and kicked out again. Basically I belong to the minority that believes we should make it easier to enter the country to work, but be less generous in welfare handouts. Europe largely lacks a growing service sector to soak these people up, mainly due to business and labour regulations. Employment and interaction with the natives is key to integration, bue Europe hasnt gotten close to seeing these dynamics at work since it usually takes a generation or two for "immigrants" (loosely used here as you arent an immigrant if you were born in the country) to integrate. How many descendants of Italian/Irish/German/Polish Americans conssider themselves anything but Americans first today? Our experience of large scale immigration is much shorter than the American one. My opinion is however strongly opposed both by unions, their social democratic allies, traditional conservatives, and the traditional populist sentiment. It's not like we can be much tougher on immigration than we are already without damaging the economy anyway. The population is aging and we are running low on tax payers. We only (and barely) let in refugees and asylum seekers (as defined by international conventions which make a fairly strict interpretation of these cathegories) and almost no labour immigration. This has "moral" reasons but have resulted in our immigrants being the most difficult to get into the labour market, amplifying the problems... |
05-24-2006, 09:21 AM | #6 |
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: Western Wilds of Michigan
Posts: 11,752
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Hmmm... where does the cycle begin and end? People leave a place for opportunity, and begin to make the most of it. They succeed. They tell their friends back home that they should come over too. The friends, even though they may not have been as motivated to succeed or as willing to take risks, do. They pass the word along.
With each succeeding passing, you get people less and less motivated, less and less interested in taking the chances to be successful. It's not that there aren't motivated people, but their numbers dwindle because they're already there. To try to break the cycle, people in the current land of opportunity try to make sure others who want to come in realize what opportunity means, and what's involved. They enact programs to condition people to appreciate the land, and establish quotas and criteria for entry. Anger and frustrations rise higher and higher on both sides... Repeat until people start leaving that place for another land of opportunity... and start all over again.
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05-24-2006, 09:30 AM | #7 |
40th Level Warrior
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Europe doesn't need friggin immigrants, Europe needs to start getting laid, and make new citizens themselves.
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05-24-2006, 10:13 AM | #8 | |
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
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Quote:
Declining populations will have economic ramifications, but it needs to happen anyway. The fact that our market systems require new influx of people and a growing/steady population to stay afloat should confirm for us that, mathematically, we are the equivalent of a virus in a laboratory culture. Here's what my President always say: "America needs these immigrant laborers to do the jobs Americans won't do..." Here's the unspoken rest of the sentence: "... for the shitty wages employers are wanting to pay for those jobs." No minimum wage increase in over a decade. No wonder folks in the hoods would rather sit at home on SSI. Sadly, I agree with them when they say that $5.50 an hour isn't worth leaving home for. It ain't, unless you're a student. We need a wage hike, not a bunch of cheap unskilled labor. Speaking of unskilled labor, new houses in this country SUCK due to all the unskilled laborers, mostly Mexicans in CA, TX and IL. In days gone by you had carpenters, masons, skilled tradesmen for life. Now you get broken English from a Mexican who says "I can do that" to whatever job you're willing to pay him to do. Fetch a cat from a tree, he can do that. Paint a fence, he can do that. Frame a house, he can do that. Yeah, pffft. He can do them all shittily. I think we've had one IW'er lose his business to this crap. I think the essential element of labor that pure economics completely forgets is that it is NOT FUNGIBLE. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] OFF. |
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05-24-2006, 10:49 AM | #9 |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: June 27, 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Age: 43
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Well personally, I'm not much for immigration. You've got wine in your glass, but you don't think you have enough to drink, so you add water in it. You don't have wine anymore.
I keep hearing about how we need immigration to keep our population growing, and how x percentage of the population is immigrants. I'm sorry, but those people are not real citizens unless they get assimilated. They don't think like us, they don't act like us, they have no loyalties to us. I've ranted on this a couple of times before, but I think it's extremly rude of someone to move to a country and not make efforts to adapt to it. I know immigrants that live out of government's welfare, never look for real jobs, and secretly work illegally without paying taxes or anything. They come over, use our tax money to pay their appartment, food and clothing, and secretly work without paying the taxes that keep them alive and fed! I know some that don't even try to learn our language. The other day I went to a restaurant and none of the employee even spoke english or french. I think those new laws are a good idea. You don't move to a country if you have nothing in common with the people living there, and even less so if you won't even be able to communicate with them. [ 05-24-2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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05-24-2006, 01:08 PM | #10 |
Quintesson
Join Date: August 28, 2004
Location: the middle of Michigan
Age: 42
Posts: 1,011
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I believe the very premise of this debate is both false and extraordinarily common.
Culture does not equal country. Nation states had to be constructed across diverse populations to get people to call themselves members of that country, to pay taxes to it, ect. This is exponentially evident with expansive, more populous countries. Since we're not talking about anyone specific, "us" is a fundamental political position. "Them" is a useful means to political ends. When we stop seeing 'culture' as static and natural, we can stop worrying about its protection and ask more relevant questions, like what is the range and scope of the impact of immigration in the first place? We apparently know the answer to that on a personal level, maybe a logical or ethical level, and vaguely on the level of the national economy - ie, we don't crap about it in my country. Yet we're ready to legislate on it and argue about it loudly on cable news. I most interested in who is benefitting from aggravating societal anxiety about foreigners into social mobilization and supporting anti-immigration policy. On the other side, who is operating, and in what ways to enact pro-immigration reform, and what are they gaining from it? I can think of some likely suspects, but the answers are generally surprising. In any case, this is the level I think is relevant - what is actually, factually happening (as far as our methods can tell us), what is SAID about what is happening, and who is saying and doing what in the context of immigration. It takes the debate at least past the common argumentative paradigm about immigration, which naturally is rooted in one's sense nationalism and personal observation. |
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