Criminals

[Morgeruat]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lifetime:
I believe that all can be forgiven, and no crime unpardonable, so long as forgiveness and pardon is earned. If a man who has forfeited 20 years of his life in jail to ponder upon what he has done, and decides to change, should he not be given as much opportunity as anyone else to live?

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Not if he took someone elses life, ok, so he spends 20 years of his life in prison for killing someone, that's nothing compared to the lifetime that the victim lost, not to mention any children they might have had, which will also never get a chance to be born and live, by the simple act of a single killing hundreds, even thousands of potential lives are lost. ok maybe not lost, but never even given the chance to exist.

And who can they possbly attone for this crime to, society? the same society which would pardon the criminal has no authority to forgive a crime like this, only god, so by simply speeding up the meeting, how is it any different than hunting down Bin Laden and killing him?

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Sir Kenyth]

It would be nice if everything worked the way it was supposed to. Only guilty people get convicted, right? I think if you knew just how many innocent people fell to the coercement of plea-bargaining, you'd be surprised. Particularly people who need to use the free counsel provided by the state. Why not just hold guns to their heads and tell them to confess. It has the same effect on their resolve.

That point made, let's remember that prison is not meant to be just a punishment. It's meant to reform someone and turn a menace into a productive person. You have to do something constructive with them! Remember, the whipped dog bites the most. You can't reform someone by hurting them constantly. You have to follow a breaking down with a building up. A reward system that stimulates them to act a certain way. Most prisons are sorely lacking in this area. Remember also, the serial rapist and killer that is depicted on TV rarely exists in the real world. A lot of criminals have very complex issues leading to what they did. There can be a lot of mitigating circumstances. It would be nice if they were all evil and it was nice and black and white. Guess what though, once convicted they all go to the same place. Do you know how many relatively harmless drug users are in prison? Some with longer sentences than violent criminals.

Have you ever seen how nasty domestic cases get? I have a freind who, when younger, accepted a plea bargain on a class D felony theft he didn't commit. What happened? His wife wanted a divorce. She quit paying on his truck and it was reposessed. $500 worth of stolen tools were magically in the vehicle when the police emptied it of personal effects. Once he was arrested when he went to the station to get his stuff, the wife and her brother came in with a few more items they claimed to find around the house and offered to testify against him. I guess he might lie about it, but it smells like a set up to me. The state provided lawyer was very helpful in recommending he accept the plea bargain and just get some probation. A that time, he didn't realize just what having a felony record could do to you, regardless of severity. My point here, is that the justice system can be quite flawed and it's usually the poor and lower middle class who get shafted. Thus my beef with plea bargains.

[Durwyn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lifetime:
America is not all "towns and villages" friend. America is a multi-racial place, and multi-cultural, because it stands for equal right and opportunity for all.

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I agree, it does give an equal opportunity to all, and America is a country of opportuinities. I also do know its a multi racial place, but most of it is composed about a peaceful living stile. Majority of America is made up of towns my friend, and I do check stats...

quote:

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Originally posted by Lifetime:
So what would your complaint be to Russian or Pakistan or Spanish-owned businesses if they provide people like yourself with a honest living? Do those people have any less of a right to work than any other American?
If that issint America, then what is?

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Honest deal? Honest living? Are you sick?! You dont live around here in New York do you? I dont think so. Come here for a day, live one day of my life and see how honest those Spanish and Pakistanian places go buy. How much racisim it involves, how many sneaky and dirty things they do. You have no idea, so please dont say such unless you actually know.


I'm not trying to flame you, but I'm wondering what your point is. You call the place you live in a zoo, your home country a place run by thieves, complain that people like yourself own businesses in big cities while they are the ones giving you a decent job, and then state that American living is in small quiet towns. Big cities have their place.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lifetime:
Money saved from cutting down on prison expenses could and should go into upgrading the standard of life in the slums and districts of big cities like NY, but why rob America of its diversity and culture by making Russian/Spanish/Pakistan owned businesses shut down or go away? These people are as much America as "Americans", as you said, so how does their being there make America not like "America"?
Those very "talents" you spoke of that America was built on ARE in those foreign businesses, those big cities, those immigrants who "rob" America of its soul. You claim that without them, America would be nothing, and yet with them, America is being robbed.
Pardon me if I'm the least bit confused by whatever you said.

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I was talking mainly about New York and Morgans main post. New York has so many closed minded folk that are pure idiots that run these buisnesses, I'm talking about BIG things that those "immigrants" did that America would not be able to do without them, not delies, and laundry mats or movie theaters.

The bottom line of my post is America needs to stop its loose living of letting so much stuff slide by, like theivery in goverment which is very small right now. Some of America entertaiment is crap! Its promotes things that other countires never had! Russia did not need RAP in it, we did not need Russian Metalists "Rockers" fighting against Russian Rappers on main streets of Moscow, and those fights are so brutal you would not even imagine. And America brought rap to Russia, you have no idea how serious these things are, these are not just some after school fights, these are BIG I mean HUGE 200 people rushing against another 200 people in central Moscow. Movies like Swordfish, things that Hollywood movies show promotes terroristic acts. I find Swordfish the movie and the Bin Laden Attack very similar. It almost seems as it has inspired him to do an attack like that. Same thing with bunch of other titles out there, they show hackers that spended hours and years coming after work and spending nights in front of their computer learning hacks and then thats how the movies start, what kinda crappy messege is Hollywood giving out? A depressed person becomes a hacker and steals stacks of gold from the main Manhattan treasury? And where is this theifvery with New York and its business ran by Russians and other ethnic backrounds going to go? I mean just look at it! Where is this all going to end up? Freedom of chaos perhaps?

What I'm saying is America needs to think a little of where its going. We dont want things getting out of hand now do we? And honestly I love America on all other apsects, its a great country as I've said. A country of opportunity and freedom, but where is this freedom going? This entertaiment? Where is going to go eventually? I dont think MTV is going unite the generations of teens growing up in America by saying thats its O.K. to be a rapper and rocker and whatever those terms are today heh, MTV is not going to do that, most of the teens in New York are lazy slobs, and I'm pretty sure there are many great teens on this Forum, its just sort of shows the difference between the people and their personalities. Well and yet again I dont know where I'm going with this heh heh but well I'm sure you get my main point here...

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Durwyn ]

[cemius]

Ditto here Morgan. Death shall be swift and just.

[Lifetime]

Actually, Durwyn, I agree with you more than you think!
I do believe that businesses and the entertainment industry should clean up their act (especially about that thing about Rap music..why the music industry promotes and encourages "artists" who dress and act no different from the regular hood in the street and supports this whole "gangsta" image is beyond me. Rap music is nearly 90% all about sex, drugs, abuse, violence and guns. I cant see that having a positive effect on anyone. But back to the subject..

I DO understand where you're going though, and I agree that America has to change this White-Trash image most people have of the average America. While America is possibly the largest influence on the world today, not all of that influence is good. I was merely trying to look at whats positive in America today, because griping about how wrong it is never changed anything about it. My relation with this and the subject of prisons and the like is that, like what Sir Kenyth said, they have to be a place of REFORM, as well as serve as a deterrant. Prisons ARE a punishment,but a punishment that encourages prisoners to change their ways to avoid going back. Instead of making America a harsher place, we should really make it a place where truely everyone has equal opportunity, thus giving an alternative to a trashy life of polluting the streets of places like NY with stuff like drugs, or gangsta culture, or violence, or the encouragement of cheap, casual sex.

The whole idea behind this is all about second chances. Nobody likes to go to prison, and nobody likes to live a harsh life on the streets. Neither of the people forced into these circumstances have much in the way of a second chance to change things. Ex-cons are ostracized by society, and most of the people on the streets today have had little in the way of education or social care. Instead of cracking down on them, change them. Change the way people look at them, and change the way they look at people..

Its funny cause in Singapore, there's been a recent set of advertisements which show a suspicious character brandishing a knife, or a tattoo-ed, mean looking fellow picking up a little girl in the street, but at the ads continue on the camera zooms out and shows the man with the knife working in a kitchen, and the tattoo-ed man with the kid meeting a decent, respectable lady, presumeably the kid's mother. The purpose of the ad is to show that even ex-cons can be beneficial and serve useful and honest roles in society, once they have been reformed and changed in prison (the ad is also a recruitment ad for the SPEAR tear, a branch of law-enforcement that deals with prisons, their tag-line being "Captains of Lives")
Its a very idealistic and utopian dream, but its enough to make me re-consider my attitude towards a lot of people who seem less-than-decent or suspicious.

[Smeagol]

The advert is quite obviously biased and if that is enough to make you change your attitude then I feel your pretty naive(spelling?).

[Barry the Sprout]

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Originally posted by Smeagol:
The advert is quite obviously biased and if that is enough to make you change your attitude then I feel your pretty naive(spelling?).

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I think "Idealised" is a better word than biased. I think from what was said the advert probably had a good point. You can't just write off a person who has done something wrong. There is always the possibility for redemption and therefore if we take the harsh option we are probably harming society as much as the criminal. I agree it doesn't work as often as I would like, but is there any wonder? Someone (I forget who, sorry whoever you are!) posted a story about a friend who found life impossible with a criminal record. There is a good reason most people reoffend - they have no other option, or they are still suffering from the same mental problems that caused the first offence. Anyway, I think the advert makes a good point - we can't be too quick to throw away what could still be useful.

[Durwyn]

But then another branch pops in. If we want prisoners to "change" their views and life why give them such "live large" life? Its much better for a bum in New York to commit a crime and go to prison. Prisons, espesially now are fancy! You cant imagine, food, clothes, blankets, movies. I mean c'mon this is BS! Money that New York needs to make it better is going to some murderers and rapists who have comitted terrible crimes...Its wrong... no progress...

[250]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:


my question is why haven't you been banned yet?

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you got a problem with me or what??

[Hiram Sedai]

quote:

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Originally posted by 250:


you got a problem with me or what??

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I'll reply to that question via PM.