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[SixOfSpades]

It's quite true that the Conjurer is the odds-on favorite, at least in BG1. There may be good Divination spells in BG2, but then there may not be. As it is, there's only one good spell in the game that Conjurer's can't cast....but then, I was going through Durlag's for my first time, and I kinda wanted to know what stuff was before I put it on or drank it. Also, you've gotta Identify before you can sell it, and not all shops can Identify....yada yada yada.

But what's this about saying it's OK for a Mage to have low DEX? That's like saying Armor Class is irrelevant. No matter WHERE in your party order your Mage is, he/she WILL find a way to blunder up to the front of the group and get shot at. And in ToSC, there was at least one enemy that seemed to sense which member of my party had the weakest AC. And without DEX, how are you supposed to be any good with your sling? Certainly, the Gauntlets of Dexterity will remedy this problem, but there are certainly a few folks who need those Gauntlets too:
Ajantis-- 13 DEX
Kagain-- 12 DEX
Jahiera-- 14 DEX
Edwin-- 10 DEX
Yeslick-- 12 DEX
Dynaheir-- 13 DEX
Eldoth-- 12 DEX
Garrick-- 13 DEX
Why make one more? In my opinion, Dexterity is THE most important stat in the game--if you're gonna bottom out someone's DEX, at least do it to a Dwarf.

[Attila]

Dex serves 2 purposes AC and Thaco

A Mage is not a Melee Character who needs either, i said needs... Dex is on the want list. Alot of people like to supplement their fire power with either darts or bullets from slings, however i mean really is the extra insubstantial damage worth it. Carrying arrows is already such a chore but think about carrying bullets as well... think is it worth it. Im a person who doesnt really play safely i like the whole adventure, so i dont make frequent stops to towns and if u play like me ^^ like how i feel it should be played, im always sort of space and carrying arrows is a strain as it is.

quote:

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But what's this about saying it's OK for a Mage to have low DEX? That's like saying Armor Class is irrelevant. No matter WHERE in your party order your Mage is, he/she WILL find a way to blunder up to the front of the group and get shot at

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When i play i make use of the SPACE BAR which everyone should know pauses the game... Every skirmish im in im prepared with a good group position and good reflexes with the Space bar in case any member of my party decides to wander to the front... And so ive never been in such a position where my Mage is even near the front, i like to have him far away not throwing anything but just looking important and powerful with his staff. In the history of RPG games Dex has never been of import to Magic Users and i dont see this game as an exception. Im just curious what ur Ideal Mage may be, 'SIXOFSPADES'
But everyone is entitled to their opinion...

[250]

when I play a party of six, I dont use space bar, thats just me

[SixOfSpades]

All right, let me put it this way: Apart from Intelligence, name one, just ONE, stat that is more important than Dexterity, for a Mage. He doesn't need more than 10 STR because he's not going to melee, he doesn't need WIS unless he wants Lore, and he doesn't need CHA unless he's leading the party, and what the heck would a Mage be doing at the front of the party? Yes, he should have 16 CON because he needs all the hitpoints he can get, but he also needs 18 DEX to preserve what few hitpoints he has. It's not that difficult to roll a Mage with 18 DEX, really. You try to make me sound like I've never heard of the space bar, but you're the one who seems unaware of the 'Reroll' button when building a character.
You ask (concerning whether one should give a Mage Missile weapons like Slings and Darts), "i mean really is the extra insubstantial damage worth it." Ummmm....yes. What's the alternative? Having him run up and whack at a Basilisk with his mighty Quarterstaff+1? And as for the inconsequential damage that Slings can do, it happened to be my Cleric who nailed Aec'Letec.
Okay, rant mode off. My "ideal" Mage? There's really no such thing as a "perfect" mage, but this is the guy I'm using in my current game:
Elven Mage/Thief (Levels 6/7 at the moment)
12/19/16/19/18/10 (I've given him the Tome of INT and Algernon's Cloak)
Pockets: 100% Locks: 100% Stealth: 80% (100% by the end of the game)

If not an Elven Mage/Thief, I'd use a Gnomish Cleric/Illusionist.

[Yoink]

I post more questions than answers but I think I can help out here, even though I'm relatively new to BG series.

It seems to me that it's more roleplayish and fun if your mage has something to do if he has no spells left memorized, or anything that would be effective in a given combat. That's why you'd have darts. Using a quarter staff is a chance he'd rather not take.

All characters from a strategic point of view would do well to have missile weapons. I have dropped many enemies before they could reach me with the combined firepower of arrows, rocks, and darts.

[ronan]

Is it just me but did someone boast about having great reflexes on the SPACE BAR! Surely not even a mage would need 18 dex to hit a button? Anyway, for all characters you need to get your con and dex as high as possible. You may be finding that you mage is making little difference with a sling, dart etc... because they have low dex and therefore are less likely to hit the target. I like to make all my characters as hard to hit as possible and high dex is a must.

[norompanlasolas]

I agree about the importance of DEX... But not with the thing that using a quarterstaff is stupid.

My Necromancer (Str 17, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 19, Wis 20, Char 6) has specialization in dagger and quarterstaff, and let me tell you, with a couple of spells he helps A LOT my other fighers up front.

For example, with Strength (1hr per level), Ironskin (until they run out, no time limit), and armor (9hs) the mage can be quite helpful to divert attacks or to just hack at the oponent when they are attacking the other pcs (especially when it is out of spells!).

Furthermore, in higher levels (BG2 and its expansion), my Necromancer has become a mean fighting machine that can take any enemy any time of the day (Tensers transformation and soon). Add to that the spells, and thats it.

You can just sit back and dominate your enemies or conjure minions to do the battle for you or get down and dirty and kill your enemies yourself with magic or with your own fists. That is why mages are much better than warriors (in higher levels). Spells can do everything, and when it can cast a bunch of them, then the mage is absolutely unstopable.

[Lord Brass]

That's true norompanlasolas, though the sheer brutal lack of experience in melee tends to shred mages under Tenser's. That's just the way it is. Missile weapons are a must for these characters. The high Dex allows them to hit something (usually enemy spellcasters) and with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, you add the damage increment to the sling bullet! It sure beats a non-magical arrow any day.

[Lemernis]

I thought the rationale for the mage's high dex requirement was that in PnP a mage uses complex and/or subtle hand gestures to cast many spells. Some require vocalization only, but I'm pretty sure most require a combination of incantation and hand gestures.

I agree with those who have said that a pure mage is best. Not gaining one additional spell slot per level (is that what it is?) doesn't matter all that much once the mage is high level and equipped with at least one RoW. I'd rather have access to all the spells--especially when playing with Dark Side installed, which adds a ton of new spells.

Here is a link to a table that lays out all of the BG1 spells that are unavailable to a specialist because they belong to that specialization's opposition school http://www.pottsland.com/baldur/crea...e_spells.shtml

Add to that table the following ToSC spells:

Unavailable to an Abjurer:
Otiluke's Resilient--Sphere Alteration
Polymorph Other--Alteration
Polymorph Self--Alteration

Unavailable to a Transmuter:
Remove Curse--Abjuration

Unavailable to Transmuter and Illusionist:
Spirit Armor--Necromancy

Unavailable to an Invoker:
Emotion: Hopelessness--Enchantment/Charm
Greater Malison--Enchantment/Charm
Chaos--Enchantment/Charm
Domination--Enchantment/Charm
Feeblemind--Enchantment/Charm
Hold Monster--Enchantment/Charm

Don't have a list of the Dark Side spells, but that would affect the choice also. Another reason I wouldn't specialize at all.

I would never choose to specialize as an Enchanter because I would lose Magic Missile. Not having the other Evocation spells I could proably work around, but I have to have MM.

Other specializations I would never choose:

Abjuration--imagine not being able to cast Haste on the party! And not being able to cast Knock when you really need it. Also, I wouldn't want to lose Polymorph Other, which is probably the deadliest spell in the game (to creatures that don't have magic resistance anyway).

Transmuter--no Resist Fear, Dispell Magic, Vampiric Touch, and Minor Globe of Invulnerability.

If I were going to specialize, losing the Necromancy spells as an Illusionist might be workable for me. I typically only use but two of them amyway. I would probably do that before I would sacrifice Identify as a Conjurer--I never use bards and I hate having to trudge to a temple or store to identify stuff. I mean strictly where convenience is concerned, Identify is actually a highly valuable spell.

But again re: losing Necromancy spells... Vampiric Touch and Spirit Armor are great spells. In my current Dark Side campaign I sometimes have my level 9 mage cast Mirror Image and Spirit Armor and go around whacking the enemy with Thunderslap (Dark Side spell) and Vampiric Touch, then finish them off with MMs. I make sure he always has some healing potions handy, of course. It's kind of neat to watch him stroll up to enemies right along with the meleers.

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: Lemernis ]

[SixOfSpades]

You know, I wish there was a similar list of the BG2 spells and what schools they're in, so we could plan further ahead. It's difficult to think about "What do I want to do for BG2?" without actually going to the BG2 forum and being exposed to spoilers.