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Old 12-20-2002, 05:55 PM   #21
The Hunter of Jahanna
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Location: NY , NY
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Quote:
The way I see it, if we accept their actions then we are decryed as no better than barbarians by allowing such injustices to occur. On the other hand, if we step in and try to correct those injustices, then you are accused of being a global dictatorial power.
Think of it like the forum. NOTE:the following is just for demonstation purposes If Ziroc decides to ban 30 members a day who are we to tell him not to? It is HIS forum after all. The same can be said for other countries. If they want to maim and torture their citizens who are we to stop them?? It is none of our buisness. Telling another countrie how to run its affairs is likely to get you shot, much like telling Z how to run his forum will quickly get you banned.

Also before people jump on me and say that being banned is a lot diffrent from being shot , well it is , and it isnt. If a total stranger is shot and killed then you can be outraged by it , but it realy doesnt have any affect on your life. Much like if a person is banned from the forum. That person is effectivly gone , people can get mad about it ,but no one stops posting over it.
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:56 PM   #22
The Hierophant
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Join Date: May 10, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:

Much like if a person is banned from the forum. That person is effectivly gone , people can get mad about it ,but no one stops posting over it.
Well, some people do (*cough* Neb *cough*).

But I get your meaning. Good point

What makes the whole situation really sticky is that alot more people nowadays are able to 'see' what goes on in other lands via tv news bulletins, newspaper articles, radio broadcasts etc. Now of course, whether or not the information sources received are 'truthful' accounts from these media is another matter entirely. But the thing is, before the inception of modern media, there was less compunction to get involved on an international scale as these 'occurances' simply wern't in your face on a day-to-day basis. If I, like some guys from my year in High School, chose to live a 'primitive' surfer lifestyle out on the West Coast of NZ with no TV and little 'input' as to the outside world I would feel little to no compunction to get involved in international politics. The World Trade Center could be some large urban marketplace somewhere in China for all I would know. That I would be unaware doesn't mean that 'atrocities' don't occur, just that there is no compelling desire (whether justified or simply imagined) to take action as there is no awareness of the deed. Some might say that morality depends upon the deeds you undertake in relation to the world that you know. To be honest I know nothing of the muslim faith, some tell me it is based on peace, some say it is based on hate. Who to believe? Are there different sects for different people? Who's version (if any) is correct? All input seems to be rife with human bias (even the original manuscript of the Quran itself was written by human hands). Sometimes people can be so confusing... Help me out here fellahs...
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Old 12-20-2002, 09:35 PM   #23
Chewbacca
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I cant resist the cross-post, with bonus added-features like,

Women of Allah:
http://islampeace.org/woman.html

The Real practice of Islam is a journey of personal submission to Allah. To follow Allah's laws.

Just like all religions, the personal, spiritual aspect is the fundemental core of Islamic practice.

People DO interpret things many different ways, they do. How else would people do extremely evil acts in the name of the most kind, merciful and compassionate?

Here is a snippet about Allah:

http://islampeace.org/whoisallah.html

Quote:
Who is Allah?

It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him. The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Quran, which is considered the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112 which reads:

"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."

Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully. He is not loving and kind. Nothing can be farther from truth than this allegation. It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Quran begins with the verse: "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate." In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) we are told that "God is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child."

But God is also Just. Hence evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment and the virtuous, His bounties and favors. Actually God's attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His sake and people oppressing and exploiting other people all their lives should not receive similar treatment from their Lord. Expecting similar treatment for them will amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negating all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The following Quranic verses are very clear and straightforward in this respect:

"Verily, for the Righteous are gardens of Delight, in the Presence of their Lord. Shall We then treat the people of Faith like the people of Sin? What is the matter with you? How judge you?" (68:34-36)

Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.

The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.

The unique usage of Allah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam's emphasis on the purity of the belief in God which is the essence of the message of all God's messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin which God will never forgive, despite the fact He may forgive all other sins.

[Note that what is meant above applies ONLY to those people who die in a state wherein they are associating others with God. The repentance of those who yet live is acceptable to God if He wills. - MSA of USC]

The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if he is of the same nature as they are, he will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing outside him causes him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if the does not depend on anything for the continuance of his own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: "He is the First and the Last."

He is Self-Sufficient or Self-Subsistent or, to use a Quranic term, Al-Qayyum. The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.

"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)

"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)

God's Attributes

If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must also be eternal and everlasting. He should not lose any of His attributes nor acquire new ones. If this is so, then His attributes are absolute. Can there be more than one Creator with such absolute attributes? Can there be for example, two absolutely powerful Creators? A moment's thought shows that this is not feasible.

The Quran summarizes this argument in the following verses:

"God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him: For then each god would have taken of that which he created and some of them would have risen up over others." (23:91)

And Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they (heaven and earth) would surely go to ruin." (21:22)

The Oneness of God

The Quran reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the worshippers of man-made objects, it asks:

"Do you worship what you have carved yourself?" (37:95)

"Or have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" (13:16)

To the worshippers of heavenly bodies it cites the story of Abraham:

"When night outspread over him he saw a star and said, 'This is my Lord.' But when it set he said, 'I love not the setters.' When he saw the moon rising, he said, 'This is my Lord.' But when it set he said, 'If my Lord does not guide me I shall surely be of the people gone astray.' When he saw the sun rising, he said, 'This is my Lord; this is greater.' But when it set he said, 'O my people, surely I quit that which you associate, I have turned my face to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth; a man of pure faith, I am not of the idolaters.'" (6:76-79)

The Believer's Attitude

In order to be a Muslim, i.e., to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief - later on called "Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah" - is not enough. Many of the idolaters knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this, but that was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah one must add tawhid al'uluhiyyah, i.e., one acknowledges the fact that is God alone Who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states which result in certain actions. Taken together these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said, "Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds." Foremost among those mental states is the feeling of gratitude towards God which could be said to be the essence of 'ibada' (worship).

The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called 'kafir' which means 'one who denies a truth' and also 'one who is ungrateful.'

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

The Quran tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Quran:

"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)

"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (2:255)

"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171)

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Old 12-20-2002, 10:50 PM   #24
Sir Krustin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
I don't judge civilisations with different laws - did you know that in some western countries they still have the death penalty!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Yes - for murder. (eye for an eye) The USA has it, but not in all states. Canada hasn't had the death penalty for years. Not sure about the UK, but I suspect they don't actually execute people these days, even if it's still on the books.

Did you know that in all muslim ruled countries the death penalty for something as simple as converting a muslim? Or even _preaching_ to a muslim? (Not all countries go as far as executing someone for preaching, but definitely jail time in some of the scummiest hellholes you've ever seen)

Muslims come to countries like Canada or the US and demand freedom to worship, but won't accord those same rights to members of other religions.

Democracy and freedom of choice are rights whether the leaders of a given country believe that or not - and by supporting power groups (either directly or by inaction) that believe they have a right to suppress any information on other belief structures, you are in fact supporting slavery and
perpetuating the dark ages on this planet.
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:59 PM   #25
Sir Krustin
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:
The same can be said for other countries. If they want to maim and torture their citizens who are we to stop them?? It is none of our buisness. Telling another countrie how to run its affairs is likely to get you shot, much like telling Z how to run his forum will quickly get you banned.
A small point to get you thinking - international law is de facto based on "might makes right". A sovereign nation is considered sovereign only so long as it can defend it's national territory by force of arms.

If diplomacy fails (country #1 says "you are abusing your people and we would like you to stop" country #2 says "piss off"), and countries disagree than the only way to resolve this is to go to war - something the US has done to Afghanistan, and this is perfectly legal under international law.

So essentially, if the US really wanted to stop a given country from torturing it's citizens, it could if it had the intestinal fortitude to do so.
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Old 12-20-2002, 11:06 PM   #26
The Hunter of Jahanna
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Too True , SirK. But if courntie #1 goes to war and gets OWNED by countrie #2, i.e. Isreal-V-The Middle East ,then the discussion and argument should be ended.There shouldnt be sanctions and inspections or any other type of back handed slowly weakening strategys employed. They should just take their beating and let the matter drop.
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Old 12-21-2002, 05:22 AM   #27
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:
quote:
The way I see it, if we accept their actions then we are decryed as no better than barbarians by allowing such injustices to occur. On the other hand, if we step in and try to correct those injustices, then you are accused of being a global dictatorial power.
Think of it like the forum. NOTE:the following is just for demonstation purposes If Ziroc decides to ban 30 members a day who are we to tell him not to? It is HIS forum after all. The same can be said for other countries. If they want to maim and torture their citizens who are we to stop them?? It is none of our buisness. Telling another countrie how to run its affairs is likely to get you shot, much like telling Z how to run his forum will quickly get you banned.

Also before people jump on me and say that being banned is a lot diffrent from being shot , well it is , and it isnt. If a total stranger is shot and killed then you can be outraged by it , but it realy doesnt have any affect on your life. Much like if a person is banned from the forum. That person is effectivly gone , people can get mad about it ,but no one stops posting over it.
[/QUOTE]Being banned is totally different to being killed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yes it is our business, as fellow human beings, when a government kills the citizens of it's own country. It's a horrific offense against humanity.
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Old 12-21-2002, 05:37 AM   #28
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world.
Unless you're not of that faith. Sorry Fred, but when I think of Islam, I think of violent invasions in 600AD that wiped out civilisation after civilisation, not in the name of money - as was the case with European conquest, but in the name of Allah.

The root cause of the problem is that in the Qur'an you will not find any assurance of salvation outside MARTYRDOM. That is a terrible reality.

Not even Muhammad the exemplar of Islam knew whether he was going to heaven or hell. Mind you Muhammad the exemplar of Islam invaded, killed and destroyed human lives.

Jesus, ordered his followers to put down their swords when he was being knowingly led away to be tried, tortured and killed.

Big dif.

No other religion of the world offers Martyrdom as an assurance of salvation like Isalm does. It's a sad reality. Wish it were not so.

A British Muslim who does not go to war has rationalised the elements of the Qu'ran that chide and belittle the person who stays at home instead of fighting.

I'm sure they are peace loving British who care more about the cricket, but they have a rationalised interpretation of the Qu'ran.

A Jew who has a rationalised interpretation of the Torah, mayh decide to eat pork, lose the hat, shave the beard and get a haircut, and play sport on the sabbath.

A Christian who has a rationalised interpretation of the New Testament may be homosexual, preach with long hair, or be part of a coup d'etat.

There are not quite the same implications for literal fundamentalism with all the various faiths.

[img]smile.gif[/img] Take it easy mate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 12-21-2002, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 12-21-2002, 05:53 AM   #29
Mouse
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Sorry Fred, but when I think of Islam, I think of violent invasions in 600AD that wiped out civilisation after civilisation, not in the name of money - as was the case with European conquest, but in the name of Allah.
Hmmmmmm, just a thought, but I believe the 16th Century colonisation of the New World by Spain and Portugal in particular could be viewed similarly. Here is some more detailed information on the subject.

Interesting topic [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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Old 12-21-2002, 06:01 AM   #30
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Isn't it the Buddists that have nothing in their sacred writings about conquest in the name of their religion? I think I heard something about this months ago on NPR. It seems all other religions have something about violence towards their enemy in them whether it is in the past or is current.

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