RE: A Relook At The Backstab Damage Formula & The Real Most Damaging Physical Strike - Page 2

timothy trotter · 06-13-2006, 08:27 PM

can somebody please explain it to me? I dont understand. If you dont want to post it here, you could pm me.

Dundee Slaytern · 06-13-2006, 08:29 PM

This is not the end of the issue however. Given the nature of the weapon, I want to see whether I can combine both the Equaliser's and Daystar's bonuses together. Also, does anybody know whether Chant actually gives +1 to damage?

Cheers.

EDIT] Ah shoot. I thought Aura of Flaming Death would have damage bonuses for some reason. Hmm... in that case, the Assassin->Cleric(24->29) dualclass only deals the same maximum amount of damage as a pureclassed Assassin.

However, the Assassin->Cleric has the Righteous Magic spell, which is basically the Cleric's verion of Kai. At level 20, you get two turns of maximum damage. So it is easy enough for you to see for yourselves the maximum damage strike. [img]smile.gif[/img]

ADD] Ah heck, I will try to make a screenshot of it. I just need to find out how to cheat in the XP... haha... one of the quirks of being a non-cheater... I don't know any of the CLUAConsole commands...

[ 06-13-2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Raffin · 06-13-2006, 08:35 PM

I never imagined what a disaster getting hit by that sword could be!

But, oddly enough, all the spoilers claim it's 2-24 dam. Ah well...

All hail the king of weapons, summoned by the 9! Legendary-parchment-paper-cut-inducer-of-greater-than-average-lethality! [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Raffin

Dundee Slaytern · 06-13-2006, 10:07 PM

Arrrrgggghhhh, noooo!

After some testing with an Assassin->Cleric and a Kensai->Thief, I discovered the following.

The BBoD does not give you the damage bonuses from the Grandmastery! Boo! You need real Grandmastery to get the damage bonus. Equalizer's off-hand damage is added on just like STR damage bonuses, it will not stack in the backstab multiplier. No!

Sigh... so much for that. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Also, Chant does not add to your damage.

So... to revise the figures again.

Dualclassed Assassin->Fighter(24->27):
---- ----
Assassin Bonus: +1
BBoDisaster: +29
GoESpecialisation: +2
TTransformation: +2
Unarmed Bonus: +5
Grandmastery: +3
Max Total = 42

25 STR: +14
Equalizer: +6

Max Backstab Damage = [(42 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 628dmg

Not as impressive as before, but it still beats the previous record. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Kensai->Thief(24->28):
---- ----
Kensai Bonus: +8
BBoDisaster: +29
GoESpecialisation: +2
TTransformation: +2
Unarmed Bonus: +5
Grandmastery: +3
Max Total = 49

25 STR: +14
Equalizer: +6

Max Backstab Damage = [(49 * 5) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 530dmg

Cheers.

SixOfSpades · 06-13-2006, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZFR:
or a black item . Don't use 'must' in bold and italics unless you're really sure.

Ah, yes, I see. Yeah, I admit it--when I think of items, I tend to think of items that are actually "items".

As for the 25 STR. . .
ToB NPC = 1

00), can be innately raised only to 20
Girdle = 22
Somebody's Ring & another Somebody's Ring = 24
So unless Tenser's has an undocumented STR boost, I'm not seeing the 25 STR.

Dundee Slaytern · 06-13-2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SixOfSpades:

quote:
Originally posted by ZFR:
or a black item . Don't use 'must' in bold and italics unless you're really sure.

Ah, yes, I see. Yeah, I admit it--when I think of items, I tend to think of items that are actually "items".

As for the 25 STR. . .
ToB NPC = 100), can be innately raised only to 20
Girdle = 22
Somebody's Ring & another Somebody's Ring = 24
So unless Tenser's has an undocumented STR boost, I'm not seeing the 25 STR. [/QUOTE]Potion of Storm Giant Strength + Ring.

ADD] Alternatively, use the ToB spell to set everybody's stats to 25 for four rounds.

[ 06-13-2006, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

thetruth · 06-16-2006, 03:27 PM

I was curious to find out the max. damage that an Assassin-Cleric can do with a backstab,I did some tests and this was the result: http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3...ncleric2kg.png

754 damage from an Assassin-Cleric (24-29) using the Shapechange: Iron Golem form

Here are the partials (I will use Dundee's formula):

Assassin Bonus: +1
Iron Golem form: +40 (4d10, +4 enchanted)
GoESpecialization: +2
TTransformation: +2
Unarmed Bonus: +4
Bless: +1
Aid: +1

Max Total = 51

25 STR: +14
Equalizer: +6

Max Backstab Damage = [( 51* 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 754dmg

(@Dundee: the Unarmed Bonus is +4 but the Grandmastery Bonus is +4 too, so your max Total for the Assassin-Fighter is still right

)

And some notes:

- The Assassin-Cleric can do more dmg than the Assassin-Fighter because of the bonus to dmg from Bless and Aid.Of course the G.Mastery of the Ass.-Fighter does not give any bonuses when attacking in the Iron Golem form.

Of course if we allow casting Bless and Aid on the Assassin-Fighter from a Cleric, then he can do the same damage with the Assassin-Cleric.And both of them could do even more dmg if we allowed some Bards in the party [img]tongue.gif[/img] (the Enhanced Bard Song gives +4 to dmg/song). The Bards could also use their Mislead clones for singing (5 Misleads/Bard) and the effects of their song are cumulative

This way we could achieve some incredible dmg, but I think that it would be too much

- Cheese: T.Transformation can be cast multiple times from scrolls and their effect are cumulative (+2 dmg bonus/T.T.)

- The bonus vs. Evil opponents from weapons (Equalizer,Daystar,Purifier) is not cumulative when 2 of them are used at the same time.

Dundee Slaytern · 06-16-2006, 08:45 PM

?

Grandmastery without the patch is +3dmg
Grandmastery with the patch is +5dmg

I did my testing with the GM patch, and +5 dmg really does apply to unarmed opponents, unless I had a mysterious +1 bonus from somewhere.

Will do some further testing on the Ass->Cle, now that I know Bless and Aid boosts damage.

ADD] Correction, after looking through the Iron Golem's files, while the IG's fists are indeed +4 enchanted, the Iron Golem's fists strikes for 4d10 damage, not 4d10+4.

ADD2] Fists are under the category of Misc(0), which means no damage bonus from GMastery. Hmm...

ADD3] Interesting. It seems that the unarmed bonus really is +4. For some reason... Rena has a mysterious +1dmg bonus from somewhere. Erm... where from though?

[ 06-16-2006, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Dundee Slaytern · 06-16-2006, 10:27 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, with thanks to thetruth's highlight of the Iron Golem's fists, I present to you the following...

For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27)

Assassin Bonus : +1
Iron Golem's Fist : +40
Improved Bard Song : +4
Cleric Aid : +1
Cleric Bless : +1
Tenser's Transformation : +2
GoESpecialisation : +2
Unarmed : +4
Maximum Total : 55

25 STR Damage Bonus : +14
Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6

~~~~ ~~~~

Total Damage = [(55 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = FFFFFF">810dmg

Screenshots:
Critical Hit on a party member on Core Difficulty
Critical Hit on a party member on Insane Difficulty

In theory... Rena could do more damage, since she has some sort of hidden +1dmg bonus, but since I cannot verify where this damage is coming from, I will disregard it for the time being.

Cheers.

ADD] And before anybody asks. No, I have no idea either how an Iron Golem can possibly stealth...

ADD2] This opens up new cheese tactics for solo Assassins( and their ilk). Equip your Quickslots with the Shapechange scrolls and Potions of Invisibility. Cast a simulacrum from Vhailor's Helm. Cast Aid on the clone and use the scroll. Proceed to wreck havoc with your backstabbing Iron Golem clone for the next two turns...

[ 06-16-2006, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

thetruth · 06-19-2006, 11:43 AM

@Dundee

The bonus to dmg from G.Mastery (without the G.M. patch) is +4 and not +3.The manual is wrong on that.

Since you use Near Infinity, you can look at the 2DA file (it's the WSPECIAL) for the correct table

Or here.

As for Rena does she has that +1 bonus to dmg even when she attacks shapechanged in Iron Golem ?

06-13-2006, 08:27 PM	#11
timothy trotter Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: December 29, 2004 Location: south australia Age: 42 Posts: 603	can somebody please explain it to me? I dont understand. If you dont want to post it here, you could pm me. __________________ Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition!<br />You will stay in the comfy chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at 11!

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06-13-2006, 08:29 PM	#12
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	This is not the end of the issue however. Given the nature of the weapon, I want to see whether I can combine both the Equaliser's and Daystar's bonuses together. Also, does anybody know whether Chant actually gives +1 to damage? Cheers. EDIT] Ah shoot. I thought Aura of Flaming Death would have damage bonuses for some reason. Hmm... in that case, the Assassin->Cleric(24->29) dualclass only deals the same maximum amount of damage as a pureclassed Assassin. However, the Assassin->Cleric has the Righteous Magic spell, which is basically the Cleric's verion of Kai. At level 20, you get two turns of maximum damage. So it is easy enough for you to see for yourselves the maximum damage strike. [img]smile.gif[/img] ADD] Ah heck, I will try to make a screenshot of it. I just need to find out how to cheat in the XP... haha... one of the quirks of being a non-cheater... I don't know any of the CLUAConsole commands... [ 06-13-2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

06-13-2006, 08:35 PM	#13
Raffin Dungeon Master Join Date: July 17, 2004 Location: US Age: 44 Posts: 69	I never imagined what a disaster getting hit by that sword could be! But, oddly enough, all the spoilers claim it's 2-24 dam. Ah well... All hail the king of weapons, summoned by the 9! Legendary-parchment-paper-cut-inducer-of-greater-than-average-lethality! [img]smile.gif[/img] -Raffin

06-13-2006, 10:07 PM	#14
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	Arrrrgggghhhh, noooo! After some testing with an Assassin->Cleric and a Kensai->Thief, I discovered the following. The BBoD does not give you the damage bonuses from the Grandmastery! Boo! You need real Grandmastery to get the damage bonus. Equalizer's off-hand damage is added on just like STR damage bonuses, it will not stack in the backstab multiplier. No! Sigh... so much for that. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Also, Chant does not add to your damage. So... to revise the figures again. Dualclassed Assassin->Fighter(24->27): ---- ---- Assassin Bonus: +1 BBoDisaster: +29 GoESpecialisation: +2 TTransformation: +2 Unarmed Bonus: +5 Grandmastery: +3 Max Total = 42 25 STR: +14 Equalizer: +6 Max Backstab Damage = [(42 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 628dmg Not as impressive as before, but it still beats the previous record. [img]smile.gif[/img] Kensai->Thief(24->28): ---- ---- Kensai Bonus: +8 BBoDisaster: +29 GoESpecialisation: +2 TTransformation: +2 Unarmed Bonus: +5 Grandmastery: +3 Max Total = 49 25 STR: +14 Equalizer: +6 Max Backstab Damage = [(49 * 5) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 530dmg Cheers.

06-16-2006, 03:27 PM	#17
thetruth Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: Greece Age: 43 Posts: 38	I was curious to find out the max. damage that an Assassin-Cleric can do with a backstab,I did some tests and this was the result: http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3...ncleric2kg.png 754 damage from an Assassin-Cleric (24-29) using the Shapechange: Iron Golem form Here are the partials (I will use Dundee's formula): Assassin Bonus: +1 Iron Golem form: +40 (4d10, +4 enchanted) GoESpecialization: +2 TTransformation: +2 Unarmed Bonus: +4 Bless: +1 Aid: +1 Max Total = 51 25 STR: +14 Equalizer: +6 Max Backstab Damage = [( 51* 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = 754dmg (@Dundee: the Unarmed Bonus is +4 but the Grandmastery Bonus is +4 too, so your max Total for the Assassin-Fighter is still right ) And some notes: - The Assassin-Cleric can do more dmg than the Assassin-Fighter because of the bonus to dmg from Bless and Aid.Of course the G.Mastery of the Ass.-Fighter does not give any bonuses when attacking in the Iron Golem form. Of course if we allow casting Bless and Aid on the Assassin-Fighter from a Cleric, then he can do the same damage with the Assassin-Cleric.And both of them could do even more dmg if we allowed some Bards in the party [img]tongue.gif[/img] (the Enhanced Bard Song gives +4 to dmg/song). The Bards could also use their Mislead clones for singing (5 Misleads/Bard) and the effects of their song are cumulative This way we could achieve some incredible dmg, but I think that it would be too much - Cheese: T.Transformation can be cast multiple times from scrolls and their effect are cumulative (+2 dmg bonus/T.T.) - The bonus vs. Evil opponents from weapons (Equalizer,Daystar,Purifier) is not cumulative when 2 of them are used at the same time.

06-16-2006, 08:45 PM	#18
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	? Grandmastery without the patch is +3dmg Grandmastery with the patch is +5dmg I did my testing with the GM patch, and +5 dmg really does apply to unarmed opponents, unless I had a mysterious +1 bonus from somewhere. Will do some further testing on the Ass->Cle, now that I know Bless and Aid boosts damage. ADD] Correction, after looking through the Iron Golem's files, while the IG's fists are indeed +4 enchanted, the Iron Golem's fists strikes for 4d10 damage, not 4d10+4. ADD2] Fists are under the category of Misc(0), which means no damage bonus from GMastery. Hmm... ADD3] Interesting. It seems that the unarmed bonus really is +4. For some reason... Rena has a mysterious +1dmg bonus from somewhere. Erm... where from though? [ 06-16-2006, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

06-16-2006, 10:27 PM	#19
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	Ladies and Gentlemen, with thanks to thetruth's highlight of the Iron Golem's fists, I present to you the following... For an Assassin->Cleric(24->27) Assassin Bonus : +1 Iron Golem's Fist : +40 Improved Bard Song : +4 Cleric Aid : +1 Cleric Bless : +1 Tenser's Transformation : +2 GoESpecialisation : +2 Unarmed : +4 Maximum Total : 55 25 STR Damage Bonus : +14 Equaliser Damage Bonus : +6 ~~~~ ~~~~ Total Damage = [(55 * 7) + (14 + 6)] * 2 = FFFFFF">810dmg Screenshots: Critical Hit on a party member on Core Difficulty Critical Hit on a party member on Insane Difficulty In theory... Rena could do more damage, since she has some sort of hidden +1dmg bonus, but since I cannot verify where this damage is coming from, I will disregard it for the time being. Cheers. ADD] And before anybody asks. No, I have no idea either how an Iron Golem can possibly stealth... ADD2] This opens up new cheese tactics for solo Assassins( and their ilk). Equip your Quickslots with the Shapechange scrolls and Potions of Invisibility. Cast a simulacrum from Vhailor's Helm. Cast Aid on the clone and use the scroll. Proceed to wreck havoc with your backstabbing Iron Golem clone for the next two turns... [ 06-16-2006, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

06-19-2006, 11:43 AM	#20
thetruth Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: Greece Age: 43 Posts: 38	@Dundee The bonus to dmg from G.Mastery (without the G.M. patch) is +4 and not +3.The manual is wrong on that. Since you use Near Infinity, you can look at the 2DA file (it's the WSPECIAL) for the correct table Or here. As for Rena does she has that +1 bonus to dmg even when she attacks shapechanged in Iron Golem ?

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