Why Paladins and Rangers???

I can't think of any real compelling reasons to be a Paladin or Ranger, except to Role-Play or use the Holy Avenger.

In AD&D, the Warhorse made the Paladin great. The Dual-wield and initial HP bonus made the Ranger great. In BG2, you don't get a warhorse, and anyone can dual-wield.

The pure fighter gets 5 specialization points in specific weapons. Plus they go up in level faster. The low-level spells the Pally and Ranger get are quite useless at the level they get them. If they could use scrolls, it might be different, but they can't. An 18th level ranger or pally fighting a Lich would not be using "Know Alignment" or "Cure Light Wounds".

Is role playing those chars really worth it? The Holy Avenger IS a beast of a sword, and makes it almost worthwhile to be a Pally in THIS game, but the Ranger is just inferior. Plus, Half-orcs can have 19 str and Con and 18 Dex, making them the best fighters BY FAR, and they can't be Rangers or Pallys.

Any compelling arguements for other than role-playing?

One of the reasons that I believe attracted me to be a ranger is that I personally identify myself with the Ranger...it seems to be more real for me. I also feel that my allignment of Chaotic Good fits the Ranger,
(in my opinion, anyway...)
That is why I role play one.
Another is maybe because I love the books by R.A. Salvadore, with Drizzt. He has become the most popular character in Faerun, and he is a ranger. I always imagined what it would be like to be along side of him in the book, "Exile", one of my favorites.
Though we all like to play what amuses us, like a Paladin, or Evil mage, it is also cool to play a char. that is close to your own personality. You become more of the story, and less of just a game.

[Tobbin]

Rangers also have other abilities as well. They gain a bit of lore and usually get better proficiency with a bow. Not quite like an archer, but that's beyond the point. I really prefer to class change from the Ranger (playing human) to either a thief or a cleric too. This gives them some really powerful abilities. You can choose this right away too, but I really do prefer a human. 3rd edition is even better. It will allow a human to multi-class right away. They do lose some points in their second class, but I don't mind that. I believe this will make for a better category of HERO. I mean, look in a lot of the old D&D books and you will see a HERO listed in them with like 3 classes. That's originally what got me interested in dual classing. Humans in the beginning were not limited in levels to how high they could go. The non-humans were limited. They could not pass like 10th level across the board. What use would there be in playing a human if they didn't have some kind of advantage. I mean, the demi-humans usually had +'s here or +'s there. They had infravision and they could be better with weapons or an enemy just because of their race. All that changed with 2nd edition and now it's all changed with 3rd. I wonder how that will transfer over to NWN? It is supposed to be 3rd edition while Baldur's Gate II is modified 2nd? Anyways, Rangers have tracking skills and other abilities in the real PnP game. They can Hide Without A Trace, much like a Thief uses their thieving abilities. When matched to a thief, this will allow you to choose most other things beside stealth. You can't use the Ranger's stealth until the thief surpasses the Ranger level, but it is still there throughout. Plus with the Rangers hitpoints (Before, they had the most starting off hitpoints too, cause they got double hitpoints at 1st level). But back to the stealth. So you can devote most, if not all of your points to the other abilities. This may seem a handicap, but that's why I usually either purchased a ring of invisibility or something that would help the stealth til I earned it back (you did have the Rangers hitpoints to help your thief survive through the transition). Eventually, it makes for a wicked combination.

[Tobbin]

The other possibility that I like to persue is the Ranger/Cleric. They gain the multiple attacks of the Ranger, plus they gain the druidical spells. You may not see this as much, but when mixed that gives them all the Clerical and Druidical spells when earned. I like to use IronSkins with Righteous Magic. Protects the Ranger from the first five attacks and maxes out his attacks for a long time. I've used it in like 3 combats at a time. The IronSkins only lasts as long as the attacks, so it's not as usefull, but you can memorize more than one. There are other spells too, like Sanctuary and Finger Of Death. I haven't tried Gate yet, but hey, a Ranger that can fight like that and cast clerical spells is pretty wicked too.

[Tobbin]

Oh yeah, One last thing about the Ranger/Thief combo too. Once the character can use both classes, you get one hell of a backstab. For however many attacks the Ranger gets in a round, you can backstab with it. My Ranger is allowed two attacks per round and he gets like damage x 5 with his backstab. Most times (with his strength bonus and the weapon damage bonus) I do like 110 - 130 points of damage with 1 attack. This will allow him to get up to 260 points of damage with his 1st attack. Not too shabby. Granted, a straight fighter could get this too, but with the stealth option of the Ranger assisting the thief, you get a more well rounded thief than you could with just a fighter. Just a thought.

Using Ranger for Dual makes sense, especially if you Dual to cleric (thus giving u access to Druid spells). But to play a ranger or pally in these games still seems to be a handicap.

Yeah, in AD&D Rangers started out with 2d8 HPs, but went up with d8 instead of d10 like Paladins and Fighters.

As for NWN, I'm signed up and I have a bunch of guild members who are going to build custom maps and dungeons.

www.thewolfclan.net

[Desdicado]

As far as playing a Paladin goes, I simply identify with it. Were I "alive" in the realms that'd be my career choice, an Evil smiting paladin!.

[Drax]

The great thing about Paladins (when they get to a real high level) is that they can act as another healing party when you original cleric has exausted his/her spells. Also they can lay on hands, use Holy Avengers and other evil smiting weapons (one in IWD a longsword +7 against evil allied characters)

Holy Avenger does make a case for the Paladin, plus the different bonuses yu can get from the sub-classes makes up partially for the loss in specialization. That +7 LS wasn't only for a Paladin in IWD, so that wouldn't be much of a draw. I do like that dispel magic skill with the Inquisitor (?) - cast in 1 segment, double the level of the pally. That means an 18th level pally could cast that spell as a lvl 36 char, and do it 4 times a day!!!! I could have REALLY used that. Usually when I used dispel magic, my level was too low against the caster and my success was about 30%. That skill alone may make the Pally useful.

Ranger I'm still searching... Since Aragorn was a Ranger, we all want to be a Ranger... And I found one compelling reason to be a mid-level ranger - you start off with 2 FREE skill points in Dual-wield. Well, this char could be a great addition to the party as the "jack of all trades" weapons expert. In a game, you never know what you will find as a weapon (+4 Halbard, etc), and to have a char that can use many different weapons is great in the beginning and middle of the game. The charm animal ability also comes in handy in a lot of places, I also used it when my cleric summoned animals and the bad guys turned them on me. Those extra two SPs the ranger gets in dual-wield are really great in the beginning of the game. Especially if you want to dual class right away to cleric.

BTW - you can't be a Ranger/Thief - it is not a valid combo. You can only dual to classes available to multi-class - so look at the half-elf or elf. Neither can be a Ranger/Thief. I thought that would be cool also - or a Ranger/Mage. No dice, I tried...

[Tobbin]

You must not have high enough stats to class change then, because I have been running a Ranger/Thief combo. Only problem with this class is that you have to use the Ranger class first, then switch to thief. Trust me, it works. Don't forget that you have to have at least 17 in Dexterity before switching. I think you have to have really high stats in Strength and Constitution too. When I class changed the Ranger I had from BG1, he had 20 strength and 19 constitution (from books I got from BGI). He is awesome at backstabs because of his strength bonus, weapon specialization (not as good as a thief/fighter mix though), and +'s from the weapon. When he hits, he hits good. I added the remove xp bonus to my game too and I get x5 backstabs right now. I'm waiting to see if it will go up more.