Wolves as Endangered Species

[Sazerac]

I have to agree with Nachtrafe here, at least on this one point. While I do not, and never will, call for the wholesale slaughter of a species, neither do I believe that any one species has the "right" to live more than any other.

What is it, Timber Loftis, that gives the wolf a greater right to live than a human being? Or a mountain elk? Or a groundhog, for that matter?

That kind of thinking is DANGEROUS, extremely dangerous, because it leads into fanatical thinking...the kind of people who dump dead animals on people's plates in restaurants, spray-paint women's coats or dump feces on them, or at worst, kill people to get their point across.

Regardless of how you call it, such actions are a blatant disrespect for LIFE, whether canine, ovine, ursine, homo sapien, or any other.

-Sazerac

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Sazerac: I have to agree with Nachtrafe here, at least on this one point. While I do not, and never will, call for the wholesale slaughter of a species, neither do I believe that any one species has the "right" to live more than any other. What is it, Timber Loftis, that gives the wolf a greater right to live than a human being? Or a mountain elk? Or a groundhog, for that matter? That kind of thinking is DANGEROUS, extremely dangerous, because it leads into fanatical thinking...the kind of people who dump dead animals on people's plates in restaurants, spray-paint women's coats or dump feces on them, or at worst, kill people to get their point across. Regardless of how you call it, such actions are a blatant disrespect for LIFE, whether canine, ovine, ursine, homo sapien, or any other. -Sazerac

My point, Sazerac, is not that the wolf as a species is more valuable than other species because of its qualities. Rather, I simply see pretty well all species as equal, with the exception of humans, who are generally pretty scummy when viewed on the macro scale. Thus, the wolf has, again IMHO (which is, I admit, quite radical ), more of a right to life than *humans* only.

A less radical point, equally applicable to this post, is that any whole species is more important than a particular individual member of a species.

[WillowIX]

Let´s see IIRC livestock isn´t part of the natural population. So livestock isn´t the natural target for wolves. Then us humans came along and brought our livestock with us. The wolves prayed on that instead because it´s an easier target. So when farmers destroy the wolves natural habitat and populates it with livestock they act all surprised when wolves pray on their stock. Hmmm shooting wolves isn´t the solution. Removing livestock from the wolves habitat is! Nature has something called balance. The only species on earth that doesn´t understand that is the one with the largest brain. Talk about a paradox. So sorry farmers, learn to live with wolves killing your livestock or move! It´s that simple! Who are we to decide what animals can and cannot hunt? BTW isn´t the wolf an endangered species in most countries?

(Edit) A nice example to finish. New York has 8 million inhabitants (give or take) 10,000 of them have asthma and therefore have trouble breathing due to exhaust from cars. So we solve the problem by banning cars then?

[ 10-18-2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

[Timber Loftis]

WillowIX:
Two things in response to your post:
1. If you bring up the "natural species" argument you open a can of worms that's too big for this thread. Invasive and transplanted species are so common it's impossible to trace back the roots. Corn, Horses in the Americas, lots of invasive species. It *is* a huge problem (e.g. zebra mussels, I could name two dozen others really fast) and should be seriously addressed - and there are national and international efforts to do so. If you are interested in a boring read on the topic, PM me and I'll forward you my 60-page thesis on it.

2. As far as the livestock being an easier target - kudos for pointing that out. Animals in nature always target the weakest prey. The Perigrin Falcons that have taken up residence in NYC (which is surprisingly like their natural habitat in that it is basically a bunch of deep narrow gorges) have the world's finest banquest of big fat pigeons to choose from. Still, they only hunt the sick and old ones. Neat, huh?

[ 10-18-2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[khazadman]

posted by timber loftis
"My point, Sazerac, is not that the wolf as a species is more valuable than other species because of its qualities. Rather, I simply see pretty well all species as equal, with the exception of humans, who are generally pretty scummy when viewed on the macro scale. Thus, the wolf has, again IMHO (which is, I admit, quite radical ), more of a right to life than *humans* only."

That is so much bull. The #1 law of nature is survival of the fittest. And man is the "fittest". I'm not saying that we should wipe out a species just because we can, but our needs must come before those of , say, wolves.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by WillowIX: Let´s see IIRC livestock isn´t part of the natural population. So livestock isn´t the natural target for wolves. Then us humans came along and brought our livestock with us. The wolves prayed on that instead because it´s an easier target. So when farmers destroy the wolves natural habitat and populates it with livestock they act all surprised when wolves pray on their stock. Hmmm shooting wolves isn´t the solution. Removing livestock from the wolves habitat is! Nature has something called balance. The only species on earth that doesn´t understand that is the one with the largest brain. Talk about a paradox. So sorry farmers, learn to live with wolves killing your livestock or move! It´s that simple! Who are we to decide what animals can and cannot hunt? BTW isn´t the wolf an endangered species in most countries?

Not picking on you but this is a standard line I've heard a million times from environmentalist groups, and it sticks in my craw. It just goes to show how little many of them know about the systems they're trying to protect.

Pretty much EVERY species out there would do the same thing in our position... or worse. We're the only species that would even think about the possibility that we might be going overboard with the "go forth and prosper" thing... every other one would happily breed itself into extinction without a second though. Our only hope is the big brain we have and the remote possibility that it might override our natural tendencies.

Humans ARE a part of nature... our current predicament is caused by the fact that we can no longer act like every other species on this planet, we need to EVOLVE... and fast. If we don't, we die. Natural law must not be the only one which controls our actions. We've won the big battle, we're the top dog... even to the point of defeating basic laws like "Survival of the Fittest" (another good thread to discuss someday). Now we need to find new standards of behavior to live by... ones that will allow us to continue to grow as a species.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by khazadman: posted by timber loftis "My point, Sazerac, is not that the wolf as a species is more valuable than other species because of its qualities. Rather, I simply see pretty well all species as equal, with the exception of humans, who are generally pretty scummy when viewed on the macro scale. Thus, the wolf has, again IMHO (which is, I admit, quite radical ), more of a right to life than *humans* only." That is so much bull. The #1 law of nature is survival of the fittest. And man is the "fittest". I'm not saying that we should wipe out a species just because we can, but our needs must come before those of , say, wolves.

I think I pointed out rather well how our survival is tied to other species, and how serving the needs of other species in turn serves our own needs. What we need is to control our own population and impact on the planet, for the sake of those of us who are presently alive.

And if you rely solely on "survival of the fittest" you are in fact saying we should wipe out other species. The fact we can *reason* gives us a higher culpability to answer to than simply running amuck doing as we please.

The fact we often fail to heed the philosophy we create and understand is what makes us worth less than other species, IMO. We can fathom "good" and "right" and, AFAWK, other species cannot. Yet, we still say "F*** it" and do as we damn well please all to often. It's not bull, and freedom and autonomy of thought are great but need *responsibility* to complement them.

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: My point, Sazerac, is not that the wolf as a species is more valuable than other species because of its qualities. Rather, I simply see pretty well all species as equal, with the exception of humans, who are generally pretty scummy when viewed on the macro scale. Thus, the wolf has, again IMHO (which is, I admit, quite radical ), more of a right to life than *humans* only.

That is, of course, your opinion. While my opinion of humans in general has decreased over time, I also know that we are the only species capable of rendering conscious creation within our environment. I agree, your viewpoint is rather radical, although I do respect it. However, that doesn't mean that I do not fear it, and I *do* fear it, greatly. Not you, Timber Loftis, but the viewpoint. As I said in my prior post, it is that type of rigid thinking that leads to extremes in behavior.

A less radical point, equally applicable to this post, is that any whole species is more important than a particular individual member of a species.

Point conceded, from a strictly species-oriented point of view. When it becomes personal, one's viewpoint tends to change quite a bit.

-Sazerac

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by WillowIX: Let´s see IIRC livestock isn´t part of the natural population. So livestock isn´t the natural target for wolves. Then us humans came along and brought our livestock with us. The wolves prayed on that instead because it´s an easier target. So when farmers destroy the wolves natural habitat and populates it with livestock they act all surprised when wolves pray on their stock. Hmmm shooting wolves isn´t the solution. Removing livestock from the wolves habitat is! Nature has something called balance. The only species on earth that doesn´t understand that is the one with the largest brain. Talk about a paradox. So sorry farmers, learn to live with wolves killing your livestock or move! It´s that simple! Who are we to decide what animals can and cannot hunt? BTW isn´t the wolf an endangered species in most countries? (Edit) A nice example to finish. New York has 8 million inhabitants (give or take) 10,000 of them have asthma and therefore have trouble breathing due to exhaust from cars. So we solve the problem by banning cars then?

Well if we take your example, has I understand it, then all farmers must move because they are incroaching on nature (not just wolves). Hmmm... where do the farmers all go? To the city? Where would they raise their crops or raise their livestock? Who would feed us? Can you imagine the starvation that would happen if we made farmers and ranchers stop farming and ranching because they are interfering with nature? Of course that would solve the population problem! That's a thought, I guess if you see all humans as evil. What about when the Nice intelligent wolf ( I do think they are extremely intelligent!) comes and starts devouring cute little Fluffy or Sylvester the Cat? I live in the city and we have a coyote problem here. Coyotes have found that cats and dogs are easy pickings. I imagine that wolves would be the same way. It's not as easy as you think!

[pritchke]

Actually wolves usually only hunt the weak and the dying in a heard so by taking out a few sheep and cattle they would actually be helping the farmers overall heard because the offspring would be stronger. They are also quite shy animals when it comes to people.

Coyotes on the other hand are much more brazen and will hunt your pets or anything they can get their paws on and will even go right up to your door. So if you have a toddler you better keep a close eye on him if you have a coyote problem.

Coyotes != wolves

One solution is farmers could build higher wire fences.

[ 10-18-2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]