Is there really life after death?

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Bullvye: [B]Dramnek, I will pray for you, friend. From where I don' know, but you have an apparent misunderstanding of holy scripture. I suggest that you pray. Pray for understanding, guidance, and truth. And then, read again the passages that you have quoted, and allow scripture to interpret scripture. Keep your mind and heart open to what you may find therein. B]

Bullvye - why not answer Dramnek's questions instead of just quoting a Creed?
YOU believe in the Creed, Dramnek_Ulk wanted answers to his questions. As a believer, you should be able to answer those questions. Can you?

I am an atheist, and even I can give bible answers to every one of them. I've been waiting for christians to do so.

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Zateel]

." Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil".
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I'm sorry, did the Bible say that God was evil? Or did you believe in your opinion that the events recorded here in one account are evil? I've never seen anywhere in the Bible said "God is evil".
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"7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29).

8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15.

9. Explain why, when slavery is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports slavery. Refuting that entails refuting 1 Peter 2:18.

10. Explain why children should submit to their parents' decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8. "
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"clearly wrong". I'm sure it is completely clear, just as when two people argue, it is completely clear to each who is correct. It is clearly wrong to you now, and not quite so clear 150 years ago, eh? I wonder what furhter "clarifications" will present themselves in the years to come.
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.11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: "Many are called but few are chosen," and "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it." If your god loves all of us, and is omnipotent and omniscient to boot, couldn't he have found a better way?

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A better way to do what? After four thousand years of people screwing up, and refusing to obey the law, he released them from the law. If you committed a crime and were convicted in court, and someone offered to serve your sentence, would you refuse, saying "no, it's not fair to me- there's got to be a better way"?
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The Bible does not say that God's ways are our ways, or that we will understand his ways. If you take that as a cop-out excuse, then tough for you, that's the root of the problem from where I'm looking. I'm not saying that the Bible is the source of my connection to God; the Holy Spirit is. Without that it's only a boring history or fiction, depending on your point of view. Most people have little or no understanding about how the Bible came to be, and if they did, they might wish they were ignorant again, if it is their only source of inspiration. Nonetheless, it is the link we have with the past account of Christ, and without another, we must treasure it.
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I'm sorry, but that kind of question reminds me of when my son asks me to explain to him why my car is faster than Mom's, even though her car has bigger tires. One simply does not know where to begin, and hates to begin knowing that the child will not try to listen anyway.

[Sharpedge]

Since we cannot conclusively prove the existence or non-existence of an afterlife I would have to conclude that our only way of reaching any sort of resolution is to ask ourselves whether we have faith or whether we do not. I consider my beliefs to be closest to Christianity, yet I cannot answer the questions raised by Dranmek. I do not have a very good knowledge of the bible at all. My belief is not sustained by words on a page, but by my faith. I have a (some might say ignorant or irrational) belief in God that is so intrinsically a part of my being I cannot conceive of my personality without it. No matter what is quoted to me, no matter how much evidence I see to the contrary, that faith simply cannot die. To return to the topic, I will say that I have faith in a continued existence after death. I cannot prove this belief is correct to any of you, other then to point out that in my heart, I genuinely believe it is the truth.

Now don't get me wrong, my faith is not unshakable. I have many questions and many concerns. My problems with the concept of heaven are summed up in this passage:

Taken from Look to Windward by Iain M. Banks: 'The point is: what happens in heaven?' 'Unknowable wonderfulness?' 'Nonsense. The answer is nothing. Nothing can happen because if something happens, in fact if something can happen, then it doesn't represent eternity. Our lives are about development, mutation and the possibility of change; that is almost a definition of what life is: change.' 'Have you always thought that?' 'If you disable change, if you effectively stop time, if you prevent the possibility of the alteration of an individuals circumstances - and that must include at least the possibility that they alter for the worse - then you don't have life after death; you just have death.

Faith vs. Reason? Anyone care to comment?



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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Zateel: . . I'm sorry, but that kind of question reminds me of when my son asks me to explain to him why my car is faster than Mom's, even though her car has bigger tires. One simply does not know where to begin, and hates to begin knowing that the child will not try to listen anyway.

The answers to all Dramnek's questions are in the bible, Zateel. Why don't you give him chapter and verse?

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Zateel]

"Bullvye - why not answer Dramnek's questions instead of just quoting a Creed?
YOU believe in the Creed, Dramnek_Ulk wanted answers to his questions. As a believer, you should be able to answer those questions. Can you?

I am an atheist, and even I can give bible answers to every one of them. I've been waiting for christians to do so." and
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"The answers to all Dramnek's questions are in the bible, Zateel. Why don't you give him chapter and verse? "
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Fljotsdale, you are an Earthling. Why don't you tell me the most subtle nuances of the entirity of quantum physics and why all things are? You *ARE* from Earth, so why don't you know EVERYTHING that happens and exactly why?

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Bullvye never said he was the Pope. He was trying to express his belief. Why don't you try asking a child of three why she loves her mother, and then tell her that that reason isn't good enough for you? I have tremendous respect for your knowledge of the Bible; you know much more than I know- Is that that what you want to hear? Everyone:
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FLJOTSDALE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE BIBLE THAN ME!!!! and probably most everyone else that has ever visited Ironworks. Relish in that pride, along with the pride you feel for using that gift to make people feel small and ignorant. If you want a Bible quote from me, how about this one...
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1 Corinthians 1:10 (NIV) "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."
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because someone cannot understand why God does or does not do things he would like God to do or not do, does not mean God is evil. It means that person has no clue. If the person elects to take a phrase out of a three thousand year old recopied document and think he can accurately assess God's psychological profile, I say that he has a problem, not me. "Clearly" this can be seen.
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Here's another one for you: Matthew 11:25 (NIV)
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"At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to children."
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I think you understand my point.
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It's not how much you know, it's how you use the tiny bit you do know to do good. I'm sorry, and I'll probably regret posting this later, but I hate it when people pick on others who have done nothing but try to contribute in a nice way. This thread was to give constructive and diverse answers for Boowinstheday. You didn't see me asking why a Wiccan can't fire off a lightning bolt "You *are* a witch , aren't you?", etc.
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Fljotsdale, I do respect you, but please, just share your gift with others instead of teasing, taunting, and boasting. Perhaps you will change someone's life for the better.


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[Epona]

Originally posted by Zateel: "Bullvye - why not answer Dramnek's questions instead of just quoting a Creed? YOU believe in the Creed, Dramnek_Ulk wanted answers to his questions. As a believer, you should be able to answer those questions. Can you? I am an atheist, and even I can give bible answers to every one of them. I've been waiting for christians to do so." and . "The answers to all Dramnek's questions are in the bible, Zateel. Why don't you give him chapter and verse? " . Fljotsdale, you are an Earthling. Why don't you tell me the most subtle nuances of the entirity of quantum physics and why all things are? You *ARE* from Earth, so why don't you know EVERYTHING that happens and exactly why? . Bullvye never said he was the Pope. He was trying to express his belief. Why don't you try asking a child of three why she loves her mother, and then tell her that that reason isn't good enough for you? I have tremendous respect for your knowledge of the Bible; you know much more than I know- Is that that what you want to hear? Everyone: . . FLJOTSDALE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE BIBLE THAN ME!!!! and probably most everyone else that has ever visited Ironworks. Relish in that pride, along with the pride you feel for using that gift to make people feel small and ignorant. If you want a Bible quote from me, how about this one... . 1 Corinthians 1:10 (NIV) "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." . because someone cannot understand why God does or does not do things he would like God to do or not do, does not mean God is evil. It means that person has no clue. If the person elects to take a phrase out of a three thousand year old recopied document and think he can accurately assess God's psychological profile, I say that he has a problem, not me. "Clearly" this can be seen. . . Here's another one for you: Matthew 11:25 (NIV) . "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to children." . . I think you understand my point. . It's not how much you know, it's how you use the tiny bit you do know to do good. I'm sorry, and I'll probably regret posting this later, but I hate it when people pick on others who have done nothing but try to contribute in a nice way. This thread was to give constructive and diverse answers for Boowinstheday. You didn't see me asking why a Wiccan can't fire off a lightning bolt "You *are* a witch , aren't you?", etc. . Fljotsdale, I do respect you, but please, just share your gift with others instead of teasing, taunting, and boasting. Perhaps you will change someone's life for the better. . .

Sorry Zateel, but I think this was a bit rude to Fljotsdale, who was making a perfectly reasonable point. One person's belief in the Creed, and being able to type it out, is NOT enough to explain to someone else why THEY should believe.
I personally find it difficult to have a sensible debate with some people if they are unwilling or unable to back up their views with some sort of data or reasoning - it all just ends up sounding like superstition to me.

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Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Epona: Sorry Zateel, but I think this was a bit rude to Fljotsdale, who was making a perfectly reasonable point. One person's belief in the Creed, and being able to type it out, is NOT enough to explain to someone else why THEY should believe. I personally find it difficult to have a sensible debate with some people if they are unwilling or unable to back up their views with some sort of data or reasoning - it all just ends up sounding like superstition to me.

Thumbs up for that post, Epona!

Zateel, teasing, taunting and boasting? Sorry mate, but that's just rude. I found Fljotsdale's question quite reasonable... Epona phrased it perfectly already in the quote above.

"One person's belief in the Creed, and being able to type it out, is NOT enough to explain to someone else why THEY should believe."



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Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

A few more questions perhaps?, if anyone can give precise answers i would be MOST interested...

"82. All of the various Christian sects ignore parts of the Bible, usually because those parts of the Bible are inconvenient. Explain which parts of the Bible your sect ignores, and explain why it is OK to ignore those parts of the Bible.

126. Throughout the Bible, your god commands his followers to wage merciless war on unbelievers (Luke 22:36, Deuteronomy 13:8, Exodus 20:23-25, Deuteronomy 20:16, Matthew 10:34, Numbers 31:17-18, etc). If you are one of his followers, why aren't you out waging merciless war on unbelievers?

127. Numbers 23:21 says that your god "has not seen wickedness in Israel." If this is so, explain why your god burned Israelites for complaining (Num 11:1), sent a plague against them for eating the meat he had given them (Num 11:33), why he burned people for using incense (Num 16:35), why he sent a plague

139. If even the contemplation of sinning is a sin (i.e. "sinning in your heart"; see, for example, Matthew 5:28) and if Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9), how can you say that Jesus was without sin?

and of course

35. Explain why prayer is OK, but spell casting is not, when both amount to the same thing: requesting that a superior supernatural force intercede in a way that would be impossible according to the normally accepted laws of physics.

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Hear no evil, speak no evil
See no evil, feel no evil
Dream no evil, fear no evil
Touch no evil, taste no evil
All I see and hear is evil
All I think and feel is evil

[This message has been edited by Dramnek_Ulk (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Melusine]

Dramnek, some of your earlier questions were quite interesting, and what would be especially interesting are the replies I hope you will receive, but there are boundaries you know? "why aren't you all out there waging war on non-believers?" Oh come on! Do you really believe that faith/the Christian faith consists of nothing more than a strict adherence to the text of the Bible? That's giving Christians a bit too little credit.

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Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

Originally posted by Zateel: ." Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil". . I'm sorry, did the Bible say that God was evil? Or did you believe in your opinion that the events recorded here in one account are evil? I've never seen anywhere in the Bible said "God is evil".

You seem to have deleted all the bible references, did you go and check the passages mentioned?. its also misinterpreting the question to say the bible would literally say "god is evil".

also the bible quite clearly states that unbelivers should be killed and converted, so if christians arnt doing this this means they are ignoring a part of the bible,so then they could explain why they ignore particula bits of the bible.



[This message has been edited by Dramnek_Ulk (edited 10-05-2001).]