Well, we usually have a very vocal board, wonder why no one has statred on... - Page 5

antonius · 06-11-2001, 10:49 AM

Donut,

Just interested - you seem very knowledgable in this area. What's your background?

06-11-2001, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donut:
Canada abolished capital punishment for ordinary crime in 1974 or 5, and for all crimes in 1998.

The Netherlands abolished the death penalty for ordinary crimes in 1870, had the last execution in 1952 and completely abolished it in 1982.

In 1942 the exiled Dutch government, based in London, changed the law and reintroduced the death penalty for those that had betrayed other people. 156 were convicted and in 1952 , 40 of those were executed.

Wow you are informed well
We juist had this discussion in English class just this day
And our (american) teacher said that all north american country's still had capital punishment
I questioned whether or not Canada had it but i believed her nevertheless
I'm Actually releaved that they don't have it

Another thing is i Went To The Hague last week with school and we visted the Prison Gate
a formor Jail where death punishment was executed on a very cruel way
The netherlands have made mistakes in the past
i don't think think they should have executed the collabators
And i totaly disagree with the chinese death punishment aswell

------------------

The Last Of the Red Fluffies

Member of the Ancients Club (@ age 16

)
High Magician of the Order of the Holy Flame

"Dream a Dreamers Dream And Know It Is But A Dream"

Yorick · 06-11-2001, 12:26 PM

I find this interesting:
I read in time magazine about two months ago that the U.S. is ranked fourth in the number of citizens it kills.

1. China
2. Iraq
3. Saudi Arabia
4. United States of America

Not exactly glorious company when looking at human rights abuses - about which this is an issue.

No European state kills its own citizens. Australia certainly doesn't.

I found this interesting.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Sazerac · 06-11-2001, 01:00 PM

I have read through these posts throughout the morning on my breaks (haven't had a chance to respond yet due to time constraints). I am repeatedly shocked by the level of vehemence expressed by some of the forum members...how can you be so personally angry at this, and wish for bloodthirsty torture?

Notwithstanding that, I am fully in favor of the death penalty, and for this reason: when a person goes beyond the pall and commits a crime of this magnitude, that person, as far as society is concerned, has transgressed the bounds of humanity and has reverted back to their bestial nature, our "other half", so to speak. Killing them is no more than exterminating a rabid dog that has gotten loose in a crowd of people.

The ancient Norse had a word for this type of criminal: warg, which meant both werewolf and outlaw. Consider the world "outlaw"...those who are outside the "law"; that is, outside of society, of humanity, of civilization. A person who committed such a crime would be abandoned, shunned from any society. Most of them wandered and died, starved to death or frozen from the elements, for no person would give them quarter or sustenance. Normal folk would look right through the warg as if he or she did not exist, because as far as they were concerned, they were inhuman and unworthy of notice. In ancient China, the same term applied, known as the Gwai, or "ghost"; a person who did not have an existence, because they had done something so heinous that it forever denied them their humanity.

I appreciate the high-mindedness of all those who wrote in against the death penalty, and in many cases, I would agree. In this situation, I do not. Justice was duly served, and we need to move on.

Sir Taliesin · 06-11-2001, 01:01 PM

I was against his execution for one reason and one reason only. For a very, very small minority in this country, he has now become a martyr. There will be people who hold this man in esteem. Why? I don't know? Tragic actually. He was mad at his government. A lot of us are from time to time. That's why you vote. To kick the bums out. You don't go bombing innocent people. People that were only doing their jobs and not harming anyone. I felt he needed to be locked up and FORGOTTEN for the rest of his life. No visiters, no friends, no fresh air, no sun, no wind, no books, no newspapers. No nothing! Just four
white walls and some plumbing fixtures. Then just let everyone forget him. This was what he wanted. He won. Nothing was gained.

Has far as voilence goes. Yes we have a lot of violence. We bring part of this on ourselves. Drugs are a major factor in violence in this country. One could say if we could just get rid of the drugs, we could get rid of the crime.
Hmmm... Guns... drugs... crazy people... alcohol... cars... baseball bats... steak knives... concrete blocks (we had a woman murdered in our city this weekend with a concrete block. Second one in one week with a concrete block.)
I don't know where to start. Do we get rid of everything? There are far more innocent people that own firearms in this country than there are that use them
in the commission of a crime. Why punish law abiding citizens.

As far as the NRA goes. I have been a member for ten or so years and I never seen an ad in their magazine where you could by a firearm unassembled. I have seen parts kits lacking a very important item that you must go to a firearms dealer to purchase. But never a complete un-assembled firearm. I also know that a thirteen year old CANNOT LEGALLY purchase a firearm in this country anywhere, period. The NRA does one thing, like every other group out there, such as the AARP or ASPCA, etc..., they fight for the things their members believe in.

But as far has McVeigh, forget him, and remember the victims. They are the ones we should be discussing today! Not some nut!

OP-ED over! You all have a good day!

------------------
Sir Taliesin

If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

Moiraine · 06-11-2001, 01:02 PM

Yorick, we don't kill our citizens anymore, but we used to, not so long ago ... I don't remember when exactly France abolished death penalty, but I was already born at the time. What are less than 50 years in regards of the amount of time humanity has been living on earth ? And more than a few right wing French citizens would like to restablish it.

------------------

The world is my oyster !
And now I have the knives to open it ...

Sazerac · 06-11-2001, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

But as far has McVeigh, forget him, and remember the victims. They are the ones we should be discussing today! Not some nut!

Dear Sir Taliesin:

AGREED FULLY!!!

Reeka · 06-11-2001, 01:21 PM

I first want to say that I feel rather numb about McVeigh's execution this morning. It was definitely a horrible and senseless act. I will also admit that I am ambivalent on the issue of the death penalty. I have been a victim of violent crime, myself, and agree with those who think he got off easy. I would have preferred that the perpetrator of the crime against me to have gone through the same degree of physical suffering and damage I went through. However, our Constitution or Bill or Rights, forgive me for not remembering which, protects criminals from cruel or unusual punishment. Therefore, the reality of cases such as these and what happened to me, is the the punishment can never fit the crime. That is because what is done to most crime victims is cruel and unusual. I honestly cannot say if seeing this person go through what I went through would have made me feel any better or more vindicated. I will never know. I suppose that I feel that unless a criminal suffers the same fate as his or her victim, they are getting off easy. Please bear in mind that my viewpoint is skewed on the issue. At this point, Timothy McVeigh's victims are dead and so is he, if there is any justice in that, I think that is something everyone must decide for themselves.

------------------
O_H_F

Charean · 06-11-2001, 01:26 PM

Reading Moridin's (and everyone else's) statements got me thinking. (Yes the pain was horrific)...

What I think we have overlooked is the role the media has played in this. The media may have fed McVeigh's rage... but more, very few times do we NOT see violence on the news. (It is almost like it is propogated in our society, then we act shocked when this happens.) They don't show the good that people do because it wouldn't get the numbers. The only show that does (here) is "Sunday Morning."

The Washington DC metro area lives on media...it is the main form of gossip in that town... who can get on and how many minutes. One man's anger at the government surpassed even the most power mad in that town... it must rankle.

I guess my point is that Moridin is really on the pulse of this. I only wish we had a way of steering the media to OTHER forms of entertainment once in a while.

------------------

Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
Looking for lost brain - I left it only for a moment....and there it goes... rolling under the table!!
Noticing that the Light has gotten further down a Dark Tunnel than expected... Time to get the Lantern... Knowing sooner or later - I will get to the End of this Tunnel to the Open Air once again...

antonius · 06-11-2001, 02:49 PM

I still retain my philosophical viewpoint on this.

Crimes are not committed against individuals. Crimes are committed against the state. The individual who believes themselves to have suffered most should have no influence over a trial or punishment (other than potentially as a witness).
Every crime that is committed reduces the value of society. We all suffer.
I shudder in horror when I hear of "victims" complaining about criminal's sentences, it's almost approaching the paedophile lynch-gangs we had here last year.

But, OTOH, I've never been a "victim" of a serious crime - it's easy for me to retain that view.

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06-11-2001, 10:49 AM	#41
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	Donut, Just interested - you seem very knowledgable in this area. What's your background?

06-11-2001, 12:26 PM	#43
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	I find this interesting: I read in time magazine about two months ago that the U.S. is ranked fourth in the number of citizens it kills. 1. China 2. Iraq 3. Saudi Arabia 4. United States of America Not exactly glorious company when looking at human rights abuses - about which this is an issue. No European state kills its own citizens. Australia certainly doesn't. I found this interesting. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

06-11-2001, 01:00 PM	#44
Sazerac Ironworks Moderator Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Monroe, LA Age: 60 Posts: 7,387	I have read through these posts throughout the morning on my breaks (haven't had a chance to respond yet due to time constraints). I am repeatedly shocked by the level of vehemence expressed by some of the forum members...how can you be so personally angry at this, and wish for bloodthirsty torture? Notwithstanding that, I am fully in favor of the death penalty, and for this reason: when a person goes beyond the pall and commits a crime of this magnitude, that person, as far as society is concerned, has transgressed the bounds of humanity and has reverted back to their bestial nature, our "other half", so to speak. Killing them is no more than exterminating a rabid dog that has gotten loose in a crowd of people. The ancient Norse had a word for this type of criminal: warg, which meant both werewolf and outlaw. Consider the world "outlaw"...those who are outside the "law"; that is, outside of society, of humanity, of civilization. A person who committed such a crime would be abandoned, shunned from any society. Most of them wandered and died, starved to death or frozen from the elements, for no person would give them quarter or sustenance. Normal folk would look right through the warg as if he or she did not exist, because as far as they were concerned, they were inhuman and unworthy of notice. In ancient China, the same term applied, known as the Gwai, or "ghost"; a person who did not have an existence, because they had done something so heinous that it forever denied them their humanity. I appreciate the high-mindedness of all those who wrote in against the death penalty, and in many cases, I would agree. In this situation, I do not. Justice was duly served, and we need to move on.

06-11-2001, 01:01 PM	#45
Sir Taliesin Silver Dragon Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN USA Age: 60 Posts: 1,641	I was against his execution for one reason and one reason only. For a very, very small minority in this country, he has now become a martyr. There will be people who hold this man in esteem. Why? I don't know? Tragic actually. He was mad at his government. A lot of us are from time to time. That's why you vote. To kick the bums out. You don't go bombing innocent people. People that were only doing their jobs and not harming anyone. I felt he needed to be locked up and FORGOTTEN for the rest of his life. No visiters, no friends, no fresh air, no sun, no wind, no books, no newspapers. No nothing! Just four white walls and some plumbing fixtures. Then just let everyone forget him. This was what he wanted. He won. Nothing was gained. Has far as voilence goes. Yes we have a lot of violence. We bring part of this on ourselves. Drugs are a major factor in violence in this country. One could say if we could just get rid of the drugs, we could get rid of the crime. Hmmm... Guns... drugs... crazy people... alcohol... cars... baseball bats... steak knives... concrete blocks (we had a woman murdered in our city this weekend with a concrete block. Second one in one week with a concrete block.) I don't know where to start. Do we get rid of everything? There are far more innocent people that own firearms in this country than there are that use them in the commission of a crime. Why punish law abiding citizens. As far as the NRA goes. I have been a member for ten or so years and I never seen an ad in their magazine where you could by a firearm unassembled. I have seen parts kits lacking a very important item that you must go to a firearms dealer to purchase. But never a complete un-assembled firearm. I also know that a thirteen year old CANNOT LEGALLY purchase a firearm in this country anywhere, period. The NRA does one thing, like every other group out there, such as the AARP or ASPCA, etc..., they fight for the things their members believe in. But as far has McVeigh, forget him, and remember the victims. They are the ones we should be discussing today! Not some nut! OP-ED over! You all have a good day! ------------------ Sir Taliesin If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

06-11-2001, 01:02 PM	#46
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	Yorick, we don't kill our citizens anymore, but we used to, not so long ago ... I don't remember when exactly France abolished death penalty, but I was already born at the time. What are less than 50 years in regards of the amount of time humanity has been living on earth ? And more than a few right wing French citizens would like to restablish it. ------------------ The world is my oyster ! And now I have the knives to open it ...

06-11-2001, 01:21 PM	#48
Reeka Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: March 2, 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama, USA Age: 70 Posts: 3,255	I first want to say that I feel rather numb about McVeigh's execution this morning. It was definitely a horrible and senseless act. I will also admit that I am ambivalent on the issue of the death penalty. I have been a victim of violent crime, myself, and agree with those who think he got off easy. I would have preferred that the perpetrator of the crime against me to have gone through the same degree of physical suffering and damage I went through. However, our Constitution or Bill or Rights, forgive me for not remembering which, protects criminals from cruel or unusual punishment. Therefore, the reality of cases such as these and what happened to me, is the the punishment can never fit the crime. That is because what is done to most crime victims is cruel and unusual. I honestly cannot say if seeing this person go through what I went through would have made me feel any better or more vindicated. I will never know. I suppose that I feel that unless a criminal suffers the same fate as his or her victim, they are getting off easy. Please bear in mind that my viewpoint is skewed on the issue. At this point, Timothy McVeigh's victims are dead and so is he, if there is any justice in that, I think that is something everyone must decide for themselves. ------------------ O_H_F

06-11-2001, 01:26 PM	#49
Charean Hathor Join Date: March 6, 2001 Location: Waxahachie, TX Age: 60 Posts: 2,201	Reading Moridin's (and everyone else's) statements got me thinking. (Yes the pain was horrific)... What I think we have overlooked is the role the media has played in this. The media may have fed McVeigh's rage... but more, very few times do we NOT see violence on the news. (It is almost like it is propogated in our society, then we act shocked when this happens.) They don't show the good that people do because it wouldn't get the numbers. The only show that does (here) is "Sunday Morning." The Washington DC metro area lives on media...it is the main form of gossip in that town... who can get on and how many minutes. One man's anger at the government surpassed even the most power mad in that town... it must rankle. I guess my point is that Moridin is really on the pulse of this. I only wish we had a way of steering the media to OTHER forms of entertainment once in a while. ------------------ Defender for the Light - Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!? Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva Looking for lost brain - I left it only for a moment....and there it goes... rolling under the table!! Noticing that the Light has gotten further down a Dark Tunnel than expected... Time to get the Lantern... Knowing sooner or later - I will get to the End of this Tunnel to the Open Air once again...

06-11-2001, 02:49 PM	#50
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	I still retain my philosophical viewpoint on this. Crimes are not committed against individuals. Crimes are committed against the state. The individual who believes themselves to have suffered most should have no influence over a trial or punishment (other than potentially as a witness). Every crime that is committed reduces the value of society. We all suffer. I shudder in horror when I hear of "victims" complaining about criminal's sentences, it's almost approaching the paedophile lynch-gangs we had here last year. But, OTOH, I've never been a "victim" of a serious crime - it's easy for me to retain that view.

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