Diminishing Returns on higher level characters

[Klorox]

Ever notice that there really isn't much difference between a 20th and 30th level Fighter? How about a Mage? A Cleric? A Monk?

It's kinda sad, but the only big difference is a few High Level Abilities. The point of this thread is to determine which class (or multiclass) character(s) go the best without hitting a level of "diminishing returns."

My initial thought is that Fighters (and their kits), Thieves (and their kits), Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Monks hit this "diminishing returns" level earliest. The warrior classes don't advance in THAC0 after level 20 or 21, they don't really gain too many more hit points (although it is more than any other class), by this level you're probably specialized in any and all weapons you'll ever want to use, and there's only so many "Greater Whirlwinds" one can use. The saving grace of a Paladin is the ability to summon a planetar, which is extremely powerful and helps the good cleric of the party by saving him a 7th level spell slot.

Monks reach a certain level where their magic resistance stops getting better. At that point on, they're very boring. They just don't really change at all.

Thieves still advance in all of their skills, but as seen by people who use Imoen, you don't really need any higher than 100 in locks and trap removing skills, and the other abilities are so high it doesn't matter either. Aside from some cool (or cheesey, depending on how you look at it) trap-related HLAs, and UAI (which everybody seems to take), there really isn't much in the way of High Level Abilities there either.

I guess Clerics, Druids, and Wizards (and all of their kits) are marginally better than the warrior classes because they will earn some extra spell casting slots. The HLAs of the priestly spellchuckers are pretty boring, save for "summon greater elemental" IMHO. And after passing level 14 as a druid (difficult to do if you're using Jaheira), the druid gets a bunch of bonuses, but the best of them are the added spell slots.

The arcane spellchuckers (Wizards and Sorcerers) get some cool HLAs, like the extra spell slots and improved alacrity. Aside from these, they still reach the same level of diminishing returns that all of the other classes do.

My question to you all is this: What class(es) don't hit a level of diminishing returns? Are there any? If not, what classes take a long time to hit that level? I'm thinking that the classes that take their time to hit that level will end up being the most interesting to me.

The only thing I can think of is using multiclassed characters a lot. There must be some other way.

[krunchyfrogg]

This thread proves to me that, by ToB, the characters who are multi-classed (and dual classed as well) are more powerful than their single-classed counterparts.

There are exceptions to this rule, though. For instance, Keldorn can not be multi-classed, and he's extremely powerful.

A Fighter/Thief multi-class is very powerful, but isn't as good a tank as a single-classed Fighter, since a F/T is not likely to be wearing heavy armor. So, while the power level might be called into doubt, a multi-classed character is undoubtedly more versatile.

[Neomi]

Cleric/Mage multiclass is definitely the gift that keeps on giving. A little weak at first, but quite viable in a party for healing, buffing, back-up maging. Somewhat of a challenge to solo at first, but levels up quickly and soon becomes a real powerhouse. At a certain point the additional cleric levels become redundant, but since you continue to add very valuable mage levels, it definitely takes a little longer to hit the point of diminishing returns.

[Dace De'Briago]

As has already been stated, higher level characters DO get less 'bang for buck' when they level up. The single saving grace for most high level characters is the HLA proficiency pool - but are these always worth staying on the straight and narrow for?

(the answer is no, I'm not going to debate why, simply put a powergamer can get far more out of a dual classed character)

I will also state that a DUAL class character is ALWAYS better than a multi-class character of equivalent level once the original class abilities have been reactivated. On a simple level: hit point, weapon proficiencies (mmm grand mastery) and kits.

Generally:

+ Always dual at a high level. As stated above, the principle of diminishing returns means that the best point to dual is between level 20 and 26, we maximise the potential of both classes to the fullest by doing this.
+ Re-roll until you get good stats, never cheat the ability scores in.
+ If you don't get maximum HP on level up, reload (or install the ease-of-use component that does it for you).
+ Always plan your proficiencies and thieving abilities in advance - do not waste points (e.g. if you are dualling to a fighter, there is no point using your planned final weapon as your first class - wasted points. E.g. 2. You know that your characters dexterity is going to increase by one point in the future, do not have your hide in shadows at 150% and let your dexterity move it upto 155%, use 5 of the % points in another skill and let the dexterity bonus increase the ability). ALWAYS PLAN AHEAD!!! (Pff noob powergamers [img]tongue.gif[/img] ).
+ Choose complimentary dual classes. Some combinations work better than others.
+ Alignment really should not matter to a properly powergamed character. 90% of the time you will be choosing the EVIL path later in the game to get the better abilities that path offers - classes with alignment restrictions should usually be avoided (exception Ranger > Cleric).
+ If you are planning on dualling to a mage character, save ALL of your scrolls until the point of dual classing. When you dual simply scroll them all and dance with joy as you hit level 11.

The BEST dual class combinations (in no particular order are as follows):

Cleric > Mage : Massively powerful character. Able to take advantage in the early game with a high Wisdom score (typically 21 on import from BG1) and LOTS of spells. The Mage transformation can easily be offset by the scribing of scrolls, typically levelling up to level 11 as a mage simply by scribing all of the scrolls you have retained prior to the dual class. We get spells all of the way up to L9 as a mage, and the lesser number of L9 spells is somewhat offset by the characters high wisdom score and the potential for Wish abuse. Did I mention HP? Better than regular mages as well (EDIT: DUH!!!)

Assassin > Fighter (25/27 or 24/28): This character is an excellent warrior for those of you wishing to play a silent killer style fighter. Gets benefits from the Assassin Poison Weapon ability before his Assassin class re-activates. Typical Assassin > Fighters need both high strength and dexterity scores. This character is amazingly well suited to dual wielding Katanas (backstab x7 with base d10 damage) - do not put proficiency points into the weapon until you become a fighter, NEVER waste proficiency points. We also get to choose the Assassination and Use and Item HLA's.

Kensai > Mage (21/22, you knew this was coming): A perfectly complimentary class. By dualling at level 21 we get to take double advantage of the Kensai Kai/Weapon proficiencies (they go up every 3 levels). We get to choose a couple of fighter HLAs and get grand mastery, we also get the bonus of a very low base armour class for a mage. Oh, how could I forgotten to have mentioned LOADS of hit points. A HUMAN fighter > Mage at maximum level making the right selections throughout the game can have upwards of 250HP, slightly scary when you think of him casting a certain level 6 spell that improves his fighting ability...

Ranger > Cleric: The primary stated bonus for this dual class is to open the druidic spheres of magic up for the cleric class. The cleric aspect benefits from the fighter key benefits, notably weapon proficiencies, THAC0 and hit points. Because the Ranger gets dual wielding FREE, we save 2 proficiency points right away to pump into other weapons. Bear in mind that we should choose blunt weapons for specialisation so we arent dissapointed when the cleric weapon restrictions are in operation (maces and flails work nicely).

OK, I'll shut up for 5 now, thoughts on that?

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Dace De'Briago: I will also state that a DUAL class character is ALWAYS better than a multi-class character of equivalent level once the original class abilities have been reactivated. On a simple level: hit point, weapon proficiencies (mmm grand mastery) and kits. ..... Ranger > Cleric: The primary stated bonus for this dual class is to open the druidic spheres of magic up for the cleric class. The cleric aspect benefits from the fighter key benefits, notably weapon proficiencies, THAC0 and hit points. Because the Ranger gets dual wielding FREE, we save 2 proficiency points right away to pump into other weapons. Bear in mind that we should choose blunt weapons for specialisation so we arent dissapointed when the cleric weapon restrictions are in operation (maces and flails work nicely). OK, I'll shut up for 5 now, thoughts on that?

What makes a dual-classed R/C better than a multi-classed Cleric/Ranger?

[Dace De'Briago]

1) Potential to choose a kit
2) Greater hit points (Ranger class first obviously)
3) Weapon pro... scratch that one

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[krunchyfrogg]

1) The Kits aren't as good as you might think. I know some of the Ranger kits can NOT dual into Cleric (try it yourself).

2) Those greater HP's amount to 9 total. Hardly a difference maker.

I'd say that you're better off multi-classing this combo, just for the fact that you'll always have access to the abilities of both classes throughout the development of the character. I would find it hard pressed to find a certain amount of XP where a dual-classed Ranger-> Cleric is significantly more powerful than a multi-classed variant.

[Dace De'Briago]

1) Which kits? Do tell [img]smile.gif[/img] Test it yourself

2) In short, the greater HP is *probably* less than 9 (in the calculations below I have erred on the side of muchos generosity toward the multiclass and have rounded up most of the HP calculations in their favour). As this thread is based on powergaming, the character has just been imported from BG1 with 19 constitution.

As a Ranger/Cleric dual class, the character is able to achieve L22 Ranger/24 Cleric.

HP as follows:

9 x 10 + (9 x 5) = 135HP
13 x 3 = 39HP
Total 174HP

The Ranger/Cleric multiclass is able to reach L23/23 at 8 million experience points. The method for calculating multiclass HP is somewhat different.

Essentially for each level between L1-9 we get:

Fighter level 5HP per level (45HP)
Cleric level 4HP per level (36HP)
Plus 5HP Con bonus x 9 (45HP, may be less?)
Total: 126HP

Then we add:
Fighter 14 x 2 (28HP, may be less?)
Cleric 14 x 1 (14HP, couldn't be less )

Which gives us a multi-class total of 168 vs 174HP. Difference of 6HP.

Upon investigating, I am DISSAPOINTED to reveal that there is no difference in the number of clerical spells between levels 23/25, meaning I can't use that as an additional bonus for the dual classed character (does tie in with the diminishing returns theme of this thread).

Ultimately though, greater HP and the ability to select a KIT swings makes the dual class the better choice for a POWER GAMER.

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Dace De'Briago: 1) Which kits? Do tell [img]smile.gif[/img] Test it yourself

No problem. I'll test now, and I'll use the CTRL-8 option during stat rolling to ensure that the character will have all needed stats for dual-classing.

Here are my results:

Ranger (no kit): Can dual-class as usual
Archer kit: Can not dual-class
Stalker kit: Can not dual-class
Beast Master kit: These guys can dual-class to the Cleric class

Ultimately though, greater HP and the ability to select a KIT swings makes the dual class the better choice for a POWER GAMER.

I love hearing a true Power Gamers POV on this, but I disagree. I like the Cleric/Ranger multi-class better than the regualr dual-class, if only for the reason that I like having access to all of my characters' abilities for as long as possible. The Beast Master kit isn't as good as the Ranger class without a kit, IMHO, especially if considering dual-classing to the Cleric class (a class that allows the wearing of heavy armor, better weapons, and summon various creature spells).

BTW, I didn't believe that an Archer or Stalker couldn't dual-class into the Cleric class at first, until I checked it out for myself. My game has the Baldurdash fixpack and the official patch installed.

[Dace De'Briago]

Short term pain for long term gain.