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Old 10-31-2002, 11:00 AM   #31
Gimli
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In general, for multiclassed Monks, here is what happens with their BAB - note this applies to their fighting while *unarmed*.

The Monk loses access to the table on page 137, which is their special unarmed BAB table - *if* they gain +1 or more BAB from any other class. So what this does to them is put then on to the table on page 136 for BAB for *all* types of attacks, including unarmed.

So when I computed the Pally(1)/Monk(14)'s BAB for unarmed fighting, what I am doing is going to page 136, looking up a 14th level Monk, and adding +1 to it, which will come from the Pally level. Since it bumps the BAB to +11, that is what gives the 3 attacks. For the pure Monk who's 16th level, for unarmed fighting I look at page 137, which gives the 4 attacks at +12/+9/+6/+3. Actually the Monk's BAB when fighting unarmed (so long as the Monk hasn't gained +1 BAB from another class) is not "low" at all - it grants extra attacks faster than any other class, and the BAB only goes down by 3 from attack to attack, whereas for everyone else it goes down by 5.

"Could you explain for me what the BABs would be for a level 10 human monk with 10 str would compare with a level 9 monk level 1 rogue tiefling also with 10 str. I just want to know how the game handles this and how to interpret the BAB tables in the manual.

If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?"

OK, I'll deal with these examples. The 10 Str grants no + to BAB at all, so you're going right off of the tables. (Although as Luvian points out, you can "patch" the game with one of Wes's mods that would allow you to take the weapon finesse feat and have it applied to unarmed fighting. That would let you add your Dex bonus to your BAB, but still not to damage like Str, which is why I still feel Str should be maxed out. Also it saves you a feat if Str is maxed as there's then no reason to take weapon finesse.)

The level 9 Tiefling Monk with 1 Thief level does *not* lose the special unarmed benefits table on page 137. The reason why is because the first thief level does not grant a BAB bonus. So from page 137, he has 2 attacks unarmed, at +6/+3. The level 10 Human has 3 attacks unarmed, at +7/+4/+1. If they fight with any weapon other than their fists, you go over to page 136. Then the Tiefling has 2 attacks at +6/+1; the Human has 2 at +7/+2.

Four levels of Fighter means that you've achieved more than +1 to BAB from a class other than Monk, so the table on page 137 no longer applies to you. Basically you're dealing with adding together the bonuses on page 136 for both unarmed combat and with any other weapon. The Figter levels give you 1 attack at a +4 BAB; the 1st Monk level gives no BAB bonus. So you'd be at +4 BAB with one attack. A level 5 pure Monk breaks down like this. If he fights using unarmed combat, he gets (from p 137) 1 attack at a +3 BAB; with any other weapon, he gets (from p 136) 1 attack at +2 BAB. Early on the differences between the special unarmed table and from the normal BAB table aren't as dramatic as they get when you hit higher levels, so up to say level 6 or so it would be perfectly fine to let your Monk use a weapon instead of fists.

It's also OK (and in fact I am doing it right now) to make a character who would be a Fighter(4)/Monk(x) who you never plan on having use unarmed attacks. The one I have maxes Str and fights with 2-handed weapons to fully take advantage of that. He gets 3 extra feats from the Fighter levels too, and all the special Monk abilities - plus he can take weapon specialization for +2 more damage, and if he takes it in 2 weapons, take maximized attacks.

But if you want a Monk who is going to fight unarmed, then multi-classing has to be done with extreme care. I like the idea of taking one Thief level the best, as it doesn't grant any + to BAB, and it does give the d6 extra sneak attack damage - plus if you start the character off as a Thief, he'll get a ton of skill points, which most certainly are not "useless".

I apologize if my remarks were "close to flames"; I feel the excessive "lols", along with just blatant misinterpretation of the rules, were both disrespectful and also required correction.

Also Luvian, I do think the Monk's AC can get raised to some pretty silly levels, and it will help if taken to extremes against almost anyone (although I can't speak from HoF experience as I don't play in that mode). Plus in their role as mage-killers, they don't have to worry so much about being hit in combat by mages. They just have to hit them with the element of surprise, do alot of damage quickly (and/or use stunning attack, *grin*), and be able to save vs. spells (which I hope I've at least shown Monks shine inherently at) and/or resist them outright with spell resistance.
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:06 AM   #32
Zoltan
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ease of use is cheating i think [img]smile.gif[/img] except bonus merchant
do you agree?
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Old 10-31-2002, 12:21 PM   #33
Gimli
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Hmm, I do use the "infinite item stacking" one, just because I don't want to spend alot of time with my inventory. If that's cheating then I'll gladly be labeled a cheater, life's too short to spend clicking on arrows all the time [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure what the PnP rules say about Monks, unarmed combat, and weapon finesse. I think if they allow it, then it's not "true" cheating. But I think if you add it after the fact to "correct" an already created Monk, then it does seem like cheating to me somewhat.
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Old 10-31-2002, 12:27 PM   #34
Jack of Speed
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I got to agree, but I go one step further... I think ANY mod to the game that is not official could be considered cheating. The reason you use it is to get skills feats or items that make your game easier. As for the Merchant... I dont think the Ease of Use Mod merchant is the same as the "Pre-Order" Ed. Merchant. I could be wrong but he seems to hoky and some of those iems shouldnt even be usuable in the game such as the Zerth Blade which is a KATANA... and katanas dont even exist in this game. I may be wrong.
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:00 PM   #35
Luvian
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack of Speed:
I got to agree, but I go one step further... I think ANY mod to the game that is not official could be considered cheating. The reason you use it is to get skills feats or items that make your game easier. As for the Merchant... I dont think the Ease of Use Mod merchant is the same as the "Pre-Order" Ed. Merchant. I could be wrong but he seems to hoky and some of those iems shouldnt even be usuable in the game such as the Zerth Blade which is a KATANA... and katanas dont even exist in this game. I may be wrong.
This is the official merchant, and the katana is a masterwork bastard sword.

What is and is not cheating is different for every person. But personally, I don't consider the unarmed fix to be a cheat, as in the official 3rd edition rules, monks can use it for their unarmed attack. I think that the devs where just not aware of this.
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Old 11-02-2002, 03:41 AM   #36
Khazraj
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Gimli especially amd others. Thanks for explaining that. The bottom line is that the program is "broken". Ok now another one Gimli. What about a Monk x / Sorcerer 8? The BAB would be at level 8/8 +10/+5? Can you verify this for me please? Actually if I was going to do it I would mostly use x-bow and darts and of course spells. I was going to make a party of 6 monks (with some multiclassing) So what do you think?
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Old 11-02-2002, 02:42 PM   #37
toriuxik
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lols are not the materials of flames. they are laughing. lol@your stupidity would be a flame. heh heh (is that better?).

Also, I play D&D with pnp primarily. I highly doubt that you know more about 3rd than me. Feel free to test me if you wish! lol
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Old 11-02-2002, 04:43 PM   #38
Gimli
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"Gimli especially amd others. Thanks for explaining that. The bottom line is that the program is "broken". Ok now another one Gimli. What about a Monk x / Sorcerer 8? The BAB would be at level 8/8 +10/+5? Can you verify this for me please? Actually if I was going to do it I would mostly use x-bow and darts and of course spells. I was going to make a party of 6 monks (with some multiclassing) So what do you think?"

Yep it would be +10/+5! And I think a monk party would be interesting and fun, I say go for it!
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Old 11-02-2002, 04:46 PM   #39
Gimli
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"lols are not the materials of flames. they are laughing. lol@your stupidity would be a flame. heh heh (is that better?)."

Wow, you really got me there! You're so smart!

"Also, I play D&D with pnp primarily. I highly doubt that you know more about 3rd than me. Feel free to test me if you wish! lol"

It seems to me you have gaping holes in your knowlledge of IWD II - that's what this board is for, not PnP 3rd Edition. I think you've already been "tested" in this thread and I think the results are pretty plain.
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:09 PM   #40
Nightowl2
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The official rule (from the PHB) on weapon finesse says only "Choose one light weapon". There is nothing else I can find on that, so it would be the DM's call on whether or not this applies to unarmed fighting.

Also, the ability for a monk or paladin to dual without penalty to another class is not strictly in the rules. They are very clear on that point. A monk or paladin who duals to anything else loses the ability to advance in that class. Likewise, another class that duals to either can't advance the original any farther.

Finally, about the ease of use mod: it fixes some unintended problems with the game, and that certainly isn't cheating. As for the rest, that's up to you, which is why all the add-ins are optional.

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