Avoid ECL classes

[Gimli]

I don't think you understand the mechanics of the game very well based on your last post, so I'm going to stop responding here and let you play however you wish. Enjoy the game!

[Jellyfish]

I have to agree that mr. Gimli's point about human's skill is quite true. That strikes a chord with me. It works well when you build a character like ranger.
18/18/18/3/16/3
You got 2 skill points every level that you can add to hide and move silently based on dex.

[Gimli]

Oh what the heck:

"lol, as I said, 18 dexterity. I don't see a problem with that. I also use a weapon until my BAB gets high enough (I used moonblade). I COULD have used weapon finesse instead and just suffered a short sword +1 or a similar weapon, but I liked the undead killing portion."

So you took an 18 Dex for the Pally/Monk? OK, if so there has been at least one solid decision. Your BAB is going to be simply awful because of your low Str though. So is your damage. Weapon finesse would be a totally wasted feat if you are going to switch to unarmed combat later on (it does not apply to unarmed attacks). Using a sword early on is fine - but with a 10 Str you're going to be lame with it.

"An ECL is not really a big difference. As I said, the only thing that humans that I'd want for one of my characters is the bonus feat."

It's the ECL plus the Paladin level, which essentially puts you 2 levels behind a pure Human Monk. You'll feel that for sure. Generally you finish the game at roughly level 16. So make that 15 because you're an Aasimar, minus one to Monk levels because you took the Paladin level. You'd be missing Quivering Palm, another +1 to AC, +2 to movement, and the switch to d20 from d12 in unarmed damage. I'd say that's pretty significant.

"Their is also a touch of REALISM in having a high charisma score for a monk. lol, heaven forbid I make a decision based on thoughts OTHER than of powergaming... lol"

So you're saying all Monks are charismatic, handsome devils? There's no less realism in a loner-type, secluded Monk who shies away from civilization and has no people-skills, and therefore has a low Cha. Low Cha is fun to RP too.

"Monks saves are not really any better than anybody elses in particular. It certainly isn't their 'chief strength' by any stretch. Also, have you ever had the joy of having your monk fail his saving throw and be halted in the fight? Its really annoying."

I guess you just don't pay attention to the rules - Monks have the *best* saves, bar none, of any character in the game. Check out page 136 of the manual, where it lists the "base save bonuses". There are 3 types of saves, Will, Reflex and Fortitude. Monks get the highest base save bonus for *every* one of those - no other class does, they all have at least one (and most 2) weaknesses (meaning they go by the lower save base bonus). I'd say that is a great advantage and a major strength of the class. And if you don't think saves are important, then why would you ever take a Paladin level, and max out Cha to a 20, and say it's great because you never fail saves?? Also with a maxed out Wis get their Wis bonus to Will saves; they get evasion and improved evasion, plus their Dex bonus to Reflex saves; and if they have a decent Con (which is quite a challenge with maxed Cha to devote points to), they add that to their Fortitude saves. Plus they get spell resistance at 13th level. They are saving thow *machines* and categorically do *not* in any way need the Paladin's boost with maxed Cha to improve them - it's overkill and a waste of stat points and a level. The *only* reason to do this is *purely* for roleplaying purposes, it makes absolutely no sense from a game mechaincs point of view.

What would be way more annoying to me than rarely failing a saving throw would be missing alot in combat, and doing very little damage when you do manage to hit, and also having low HP.

"Monks have poor HD for a warrior, and their BAB is low. Thus, I can use spells to aide his strength enough (which isn't much, its good enough by itself really)."

You can use spells on any Monk to up Str, not just on poorly designed ones that start out with a 10 in Str. Spells that increase Str don't stack, so the best you're looking at is about +5 from a Bull's Str. I'd much rather have that going on top of an 18, or better yet a 22 at level 16. Their HD problem is offset by the fact that their AC can get really high, and also should cry out "raise my Con, not my Cha". Their BAB is right in the middle as BAB goes, it's not "low", check pages 136 and 137.

"Skills don't amount to anything. They are pointless for a warrior. A waste of time even. So HOW does having that 1 extra skill point help that human fighter?
lol, it doesn't."

Are we talking about a human fighter? No we're talking about a Monk. If you're going to use him as a leader type, which you said you would (which IMHO is also a mistake) you need to raise Diplomacy; also Monks have access to, and should most definitely take advantage of Hide and Move Silently - they are perhaps the best mage-killers in the game, and sneaking behind enemy lines and taking out mages is something they can do amazingly well. That means your particular Monk ideally would need 3 skill points per level. I think the Human hits the sweet spot for a Monk - even with a 3 Int, they get 2 skill points per level, which means maxed out Hide and Move Silently, which pretty much will eventually equal free invisibility all the time.

"And yet, you keep mentioning it like its important? lol, how does it stack up to the handy sunscorch ability? Or perhaps the nightvision (which is better than 1 skill point per level by far)? Or perhaps, the bonus to stats? Or perhaps... lol, the list goes on."

Free invisibility from hide and move silently is so much more useful than sunscorch (the damage from a sling of a Monk with a good Str will do more damage than that, I don't think any Aasimar I've played has ever bothered to even use it). Nightvision is also not needed- it's nice, but I'd rather the screen look a little greyer to me than to pass up having another skill maxed out. Plus so long as one other character in the group has nightvision, the whole group can get its benefits, so it is also IMHO a waste if you have it more than once.

Again, have fun roleplaying this character, enjoy your game - but you really have alot of holes in your knowledge of how to design characters IMHO. And also using the acronym "lol" ad infinitum doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive.

[ 10-29-2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Gimli ]

[Gimli]

Oh, not to mention...

Monks are immune to disease (5th), poison (11th);

and they get Still Mind at 3rd level which gives a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and effects from the Enchantment school.

A few more reasons why they need no saving throw boosts.

But I thought about and realized your biggest flaw - the Paladin level grants a +1 BAB. And in IWD II, if you get +1 or more BAB from any other class as a multi-classed Monk, you lose the benefits of the Monk's special unarmed attack table. So here would be an end-game comparison of the pure human Monk to yours,
fighting unarmed:

Human (16th level, all Monk):

4 attacks, BAB +12/+9/+6/+3; damage is d20 per attack

Aasimar (15th level, 1 Paladin, 14 Monk):

3 attacks, BAB +11/+6/+1; damage is d12 per attack

Not to mention the Human, if built with an 18 Str, will have another +5 advantage to hit and to damage.

I'd say that is quite a steep cost, and if you still think a Human stinks up the room compared to your Aasimar, well we'll never agree, *lol*

[Jack of Speed]

Can we get together and sing songs about peace and happiness and chill out?
He's having fun with his "Crazy Monk" AND since he is doing this and giving us insight into what are bound to be the misadventures of the crazy monk WE dont have to. If he gets to the end of the game I WOULD like to here about that and how well he did. But in the mean time: Who has a Half-Orc Necromancer they want to share tales of?

[Luvian]

Very nice debate, but please guys, watch your temper, we are very close to flames now...

Keep in mind that all your opinions are based on your playing style, and unless you all play the game the same way and like the same things, none of you will be able to convince each other.

That being said, I would like to add some opinions to the discussion.

Personally, I like my monks to have as high a strength as possible, so that they can do lots of damages, since weapon finesse does not work for monks in this game. But there is hope for dexterity lovers. The latest ease of use mod has a fix that allow weapon finesse to work for monks, and the cool thing about the ease of use mod is that you can chose what elements to install. So if you don't want any "cheats" in your game, you can still install the weapon finesse fix, since weapon finesse apply to monk's unarmed attacks in the official 3rd edition D&D rules.

Also, someone mentioned that monks have higher ac than normal, so that compensate for their low hitpoints. I disagree. By the end of the game, about every ennemies have at least +20 to attack, so you will never evade anyway. And let's not even talk about HOF mode... In my opinion, in this game, the only thing that make difference is damage reduction.

[Khazraj]

For Gimli.

I am very confused with the BAB for a pure class monk and multi classed monk. I was looking at the reply that you put up above comparing the human and the assimar multiclassed monks.

Could you explain for me what the BABs would be for a level 10 human monk with 10 str would compare with a level 9 monk level 1 rogue tiefling also with 10 str. I just want to know how the game handles this and how to interpret the BAB tables in the manual.

If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?

Sorry for the lame questions I just don't get it.

I had planned on making a monk level x level rogue 1 and a monk level x/sorcerer level 8. Perhaps these would be junk?

Just trying to understand and use the game.

Thanks for your advice.

Cheers.

[Jellyfish]

Do you only want Mr. Gimli? If you do, just ignore my issues.lol
For fighter classes(fighter,ranger,paladin,barbarian), you have 1 bab on level 1, and you keep gaining one bab on each lv.
For classes likecleric, thief, bard, monk and druid, you have 0 bab on first level, and you get 3 bab for each 4 levels.
For wizards and sorcerors, you have 0 bab on first level and you get 1 bab for each 2 levels.

The least number is +1 for each attack basically.When your bab reaches 6, you have one extra attack number each turn, but you have penalty of -5 attack role for the second attack. So it makes +6/+1.
Similarly, you get your second, third or even more attack numbers as your bab is increasing. for example, a lv 16 fighter has 16 bab, so it should be +16/+11/+6/+1. you will have 4 attack number then.

However, monks use a different way to count the attack number. It is -4 for each attack per round, not -5. And remember, it only counts like that when you are using your fists. It is a big advantage for monks.

IWD2 has a bug that makes a monk's bab get messed up when you have some other class's bab added to the total bab.( You must have at least one bab from other class, and only lv 1 fighter classes will have one bab while other classes have none.) Your monk's attack number will be just like you are using weapons even when you are attacking with your fists.(-5)

Using rogue's sneak attack with monk is a good point in nwn, but not in iwd2, since the bab bug is there. LV1 rogue and lv x monk? Why do you choose that?
Do you want to get rogue's skill bounus at lv1? well, that is considerable, but I won't do that because the monk will never reach level 30 and one level higher sometimes means a lot.( Like lv15 and lv16 monks, their damage of fists are quite different.)

Lv8 sor and lvx monk? Tell me your thinking about this class please.
I used to develop lv1 monk lvx sor.lol

[Jellyfish]

'If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?'

According to my last post.
4 fighter/1 monk bab 4+0=4
5 monk bab 3

[Warhammer]

I beg to differ. I finished the game, and am halfway through HoW with a 6 DROW PARTY.

I am finding the game too easy. I do not uses Summoning Spells, pre-patch Imporoved invisibility, bows, stealth, rogues,...

If anybody cares my party is:
Fighter / Cleric of Helm 22/1
Barbarian / Cleric of Tempus 22/1
Paladin / Cleric of Illmater 20/3
Cleric of Illmater / Paladin 21/2
Duid / Cleric of Talos 20/3
Wizard / Rogue 21/2

Buff up and melee all the way.

I dunno 'bout other ECL classes though,