a Newbees Party

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Azred: I can agree with that, NobleNick. In general, daggers are good only for the money for which you can sell them. A real fighter, in the generally-accepted use of the term, would use a sword, mace, hammer, or club against most foes.

You forgot axes and halberds.

Who uses halberds? I have occasionally but not often as they are not plentiful and I don't believe I have ever found one that has better than +3 THACO I believe there may be some random +4s but I am not sure. There benefits are the longer reach and they can do up to 1d10 points of base damage which is nice and I believe is the best weapon for a fighter to start out in Easthaven with has the plain jane halberds have Damage: 1D10, and THAC0 +1. Problem is finding your next weapon upgrade. I often start a paladin with a halberd and eventually put points in long sword.




[ 06-02-2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Azred]

Nah...just didn't mention them.

Actually, I like halbards. If you can max out (or perhaps it should be minimize? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] ) your tank's AC and keep their strength quite high (naturally, the Belt of Stromnos or lots of potions) then halbards are really useful. Of course, the Ring of Reckless Action (one of my favorite items) is really helpful here, even though it penalizes the AC by 2 but gives an extra attack. Try to picture 3 or 4 attacks per round with a halbard.... [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]

[ister]

Originally posted by NobleNick: ister, Same story for darts and slings. I hate slings, but use them as the price for getting Cleric/Druid abilities. BUT a sling is not the worst ranged weapon you can find: Friends don't let friends do darts: A vanilla dart is 1D3. A vanilla bullet is 1D4+1. Let's not even talk about Jamison's Sling (+4), Giant Killer (+1, +4 against Giants) or Quinn's Fancy Sling (+3 damage, +5 THAC0). Just compare a plain old easy-to-come-by +1 Sling: Average dart damage = 2 HP per hit. Average Sling damage = 4.5 HP per hit. Now here is where the smoke and mirrors start, because we must hypothesize THAC0s and ACs for an imaginary encounter. Let's presume a journeyman warrior with a natural THAC0 of 9 encountering an enemy with an AC of 0. The chance of a dart hit is (20-(9-0)+1)/20 = 60%. So the expected damage per dart attempt is (0.6 x 2) = 1.20 HP. The chance of a bullet hit (+1 Sling) is (20-(8-0)+1)/20 = 65%. So the expected damage per Sling attempt is (0.65 x 4.5) = 2.925 HP. The slinger gets 2 attacks per round, for an expected damage of 5.85 HP per round. The dartist MUST HAVE AT LEAST FIVE (5) ApR with the dart to better this expected damage (5 ApR x 1.20 HP/attack = 6 HP damage per round, which is essentially the same as the slinger's 5.85). Tougher opponents (better enemy AC relative to the Fighter's THAC0) make the slinger look better. More desirable slings make the slinger look better. Higher level warriors (better ApRs) make the slinger look better. Add in the factors that you pointed out about the plentiful sling ammo (much

Hold on here. a +1 sling doesn't add to damage, just to THAC0. So the correct numbers are average damage per dart hit 2 HP, average damage per sling hit 3.5 HP. However, you've also neglected the additional damage due to proficiency slots.
Let me do the correct math for your example. I assume two stars in either darts or slings. Low level fighter (less than 7), so no extra APRs from level. THAC0 = 9 (for the dart), 8 for the +1 sling.

Sling
To hit roll is 8. The fighter has a 55% chance of a normal hit, a 5% chance of a critical hit. Normal damage is 2-5, however we get +2 damage due to 2 proficiency points. Therefore average damage per hit is 5.5 hit points, NOT the 4.5 you used. APR for a low level fighter is 1.5 (1 base for a sling + 0.5 for proficiency). Your fighter with 2 APR must be higher level than mine (which does make the case for the sling a little better). So the total damage per round is
1.5 APR* (0.55 to hit * 5.5 hp/hit + 0.05 citical hit * 11 hp/hit)
this adds up to 5.36 hp per round, a pretty respectable amount.

Dart
TO hit roll is 9 (no advantage from the +1 sling [img]smile.gif[/img] ). The fighter has a 50% chance of a normal hit, and a 5% chance of a critical hit. Normal damage is 1-3, however, we get +2 hp due to the 2 proficiency points. Therefore expected damage per hit is 4, NOT the 2 you used. APR for the low level fighter is 3.5 (3 base for darts + 0.5 for proficiency). So the total damage per round is
3.5 APR* (0.50 to hit * 4 hp/hit + 0.05 citical hit * 8 hp/hit)
which adds up to 8.4 hp per round, or 56% more than the already respectable total from the sling.

This is not something you can just ignore while claiming 'friends don't let friends use darts'. APR makes all the difference, and darts rule for APR.

Heck, just for laughs let's make the fighter level 14 so he's maxed out his natural APR. Now give him 3 stars. And the +4 sling to make my case as weak as possible. Assume THAC0 of around 5, and an enemy with AC of -8. I'll repeat the anlysis

Sling
To hit roll is 13, but the +4 sling brings it to 9. The fighter has a 50% chance of a normal hit, a 5% chance of a critical hit. Normal damage is 2-5, however we get +3 damage due to 3 proficiency points. Therefore average damage per hit is 6.5 hit points. APR is 2.5 (1 base for a sling + 0.5 for proficiency +1 for high level fighter). Now the total damage per round is
2.5 APR* (0.45 to hit * 6.5 hp/hit + 0.05 citical hit * 13 hp/hit)
which adds up to 8.94, much better than the previous case.

Dart
To hit roll is 13. The fighter has a 30% chance of a normal hit, and a 5% chance of a critical hit. Normal damage is 1-3, however, we get +3 hp due to the 3 proficiency points. Therefore expected damage per hit is 5. APR is 4.5 (3 base for darts + 0.5 for proficiency + 1 for high level fighter). So the total damage per round is
4.5 APR* (0.30 to hit * 5 hp/hit + 0.05 citical hit * 10 hp/hit)
which adds up to 9.0 hp per round.

In other words, in a case that's extremely favourable for the slinger (high enchantment sling, tough opponent, high level fighter with very good APR), the dart STILL comes out slightly ahead.

The mathematics is undeniable. Darts are clearly superior to slings in almost every situation. As I said originally the only reasons to prefer slings are
1) Insufficient magic ammo. Only a problem for enemies that can't be hit with normal weapons, as in most cases the natural superior performance of the dart makes up for an enchantment on the sling.
2) Logisitics of carrying around so may darts and keeping the weapon slot stocked.

[ 06-02-2005, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: ister ]

[NobleNick]

ister,

Quick reply: You are right: I accounted for THAC0 and ApRs, but did not add in the extra damage from PP. And I'll bet there is more from DEX or STR. Gross oversight on my part. However, my interpretation of the rules is that sling bonus to damage does stack. I must admit I have no in-game data to back up that claim. I'm going to have to plead "nolo contendre," until I do some testing to see what is really the case.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Azred]

The old pencil-and-paper rulebooks and the Infintiy Engine both treat slings similarly: they are classified as a "launcher", which apply magical bonuses only on Thac0 rolls and not damage. The ammunition will give bonuses to damage, if any apply. A normal sling loaded with +3 bullets can damage an iron golem, but a +3 sling loaded with normal bullets will not.

I'll be even nerdier. Ister is not listing the average damage per hit, he is listing the expectation of damage per successful hit. Testing of various slings with about 100 successful hits each should give enough raw data to perform a statistical analysis of the damage inflicted and generate a typical distribution curve. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ister]

Originally posted by NobleNick: ister, Quick reply: You are right: I accounted for THAC0 and ApRs, but did not add in the extra damage from PP. And I'll bet there is more from DEX or STR. Gross oversight on my part.

Surely strength wouldn't affect either one right? As I understand it the rules for both darts and slings are that you get a bonus (or penalty) to THAC0 from dexterity. Dexterity never affects damage, and strength shouldn't make any difference.

Anyway it remains true that +2 bullets will beat darts (although not +1 darts, but there are precious few of those). And ultimately my point was never how great darts are (they have their place, but the dart isn't a great weapon) but rather how awful slings are. Slings are for clerics, and for when you can't be bothered buying and managing hundreds of darts.

As to the testing, it's pretty clear that we all agree on the THAC0 part of the problem, and I think we agree on the APR. I'm very confident on my interpretation of both of those, to the point where I wouldn't bother testing. The bit that does need testing is the damage - I'm basing my numbers on what the rules say and the way I remember my experience. Neither is entirely reliable.

[Midget Gems]

I usually have one character in my party who can use Darts as his back-up weapon. I love it when some powerful enemy gets caught by the 'stun' effect from a magic dart and gets beaten to pulp. Yup, Darts can be fun.

[Kitiara]

oh, a sling vs. darts discussion wasn't really my purpose of this thread, but I've leart a lot about how the game works...
...so by all means, carry on!

[ 06-03-2005, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Kitiara ]

[NobleNick]

ister, I know STR affects damage for melee, and thought DEX might do the same for ranged. DEX just affecting THAC0 and STR having no effect at all on ranged is believable, but I honestly don't know. And, despite all the good expose' we have had, I am still not sure of several things. For me, testing is in order. I'll post results in a separate thread.

kitiara, the occasional meandering off-topic thread is characteristic of this corner of the Ironworks forum. Enjoy.

Azred, yeah, a 100 hits per case would give some reliable data. It will take less than that, though to figure out what the rules are. An even easier way is to just arm teams of identical (except for where the PP are stacked) Fighters (CLVL = 9, AC = 0) with slings and darts, let them have at each other, and see who is the last man standing. Run 3 fights and take notes. If it is close, run 7 fights. Repeat for F(13) with AC = -12 or better.

Hey, while I was checking out some stats on my IWD team I saw that one of them (Acck, don't recall if it was the DC F/D, DC R/C or DC R/C) had FOUR (4) stars (PP) in sling! I rubbed my eyes and re-checked...twice. Yes, four PP in sling. Aren't ranged weapons supposed to cap out at 3 PP?

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[JrKASperov]

I know for a fact at least slings get the STR bonus.
My fighter(3)/cleric with only one proficiency point (no damage bonus) with a +1 sling does around 8 damage every succesful hit. This is simply impossible without str being added. I can imagine this being the same for the darts though, so the damage of darts will stack up even higher.