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[jmsteven]

Originally posted by NobleNick: quote: Originally posted by jmsteven: I have to disagree with Nick about this one. Here's why:

jmsteven, Here we go...[/QUOTE]OK Nick, let's try again...

[qb]The Single Class (SC) Fighter with CON=18 and "Max HP per level" gets 14 HP per level for the first 9 levels.[qb]

With Max HP and Con=18, the Multi-class Figther/Druid gets 13 HP per level for the first 9 levels. The extra 9 HP aren't that big a deal, and are only guaranteed if you play max HP (which I don't). If you allow HP variation in the game, the Fighter dual-class with Con=18 has a HP range of 5-14 per level, whereas the multiclass has a HP range of 6-13 per level (minimum 3 HP for each class). The two are in a statistical dead heat.

[qb] This gives the dual-class a +2 bonus to hit and +3 bonus damage over the multiclass with 2 PP per weapon. And that is a lot!...[qb]

The problem with the example you provide is that it is a cross-sectional comparison and not a longitudinal one. The dual class stops improving as a fighter at 9th level, and the multiclass continues to improve as a fighter throughout the game. The advantage of 5 PP vs. 2 PP at 9th level is lost when the multi-class progresses to 13th level. The multi-class finishes the game with much better THAC0 than the dual-class.

There is a 1/2 ApR for 2 PP, and another at 5 PP. There is also 1/2 ApR at 7th level, and another at 13th level. A 9th level Fighter with 5 PP gets 2.5 ApR. A 13th level Fighter/Druid with 2 PP will have better THAC0 and also get 2.5 ApR.

I think my point about using all skills all the time is probably one of the better reasons for choosing a multiclass over the dual-class. If you have a party of 6, you will probably have to do the first three chapters of the game without a druid.

The only dual-class I think is really worth the trouble is having a Ranger dual to a Cleric at level 2 instead of just a single class Cleric. Lots of advantages with just 2 levels of Ranger.

[ 10-28-2004, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[Aerich]

Nick and I have hashed this out a fair bit before. Conclusion - DC Fighter/Druid is superior to MC Fighter/Druid if you:

1) Have enough patience to wait to Fighter lvl 12 or 13 before dualing over (minimum lvl 9),

2) Have the right mix of characters in your party so you aren't hurting for lack of priest spells in the beginning,

and 3) have a sufficiently long game with enough XP so that it is worth it (read: HoW and preferably TotL).

It goes without saying that you really want the awesome extra druid spells added by HoW.

This is not to say the MC Fighter/Druid is bad, at any stage of the game. I'm very happy with my current lvl 10/11 multiclass F/D. It's versatile, and has been for the entire game. That's the advantage for me, as I'm playing a party based on priestly power - and I need/want both the spells of the F/D and the melee and missile capability (Att/round, Thac0, and damage) that she contributes. Plainly put, the combination of Fighter and Druid is excellent, no matter how you slice it.

One last thing - the 30% resistance to sleep and charm spells is not that big a deal. Any party worth its salt will have Protection from Evil 10' Radius active most of the time; and in addition to the +2 to AC and saving throws, PfE gives total immunity to charm-based spells. Granted, it can be a factor when the PfE is dispelled by the rare (but oh-so-annoying) monsters and spellcasters that cast Dispel Magic, but overall it's a small advantage. Same with the magical items - there's plenty of good loot to outfit a human F/D.

However, NobleNick's notorious powergaming aside, you might want to pick the MC F/D for roleplay purposes, or for fun, to try out certain items. You CAN get through the game without the best possible tanks.

Edit: just saw jmsteven's post. He brings up a valid point - over a VERY long game, say on Heart of Fury mode, the multiclass F/D is arguably better because of the better Thac0. Still slightly lower HP and attacks/round, though, but a lvl 30/30 F/D isn't likely to be hurt by either one of those considerations. You could, of course, do a lvl 29/30 dual-class F/D, but you'd probably have to run it through twice to regain fighter skills, and that's no fun. The whole idea is to balance off level of fighter skills against the amount of time you spend as a butt-kickin' F/D. For some, DC is the way to go; for others, MC. I've used both, and both tend to be among the best two-class characters around.

[ 10-28-2004, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[jmsteven]

Which would you rather have:

Fighter[9]/Druid[30] dual

or

Figher[30]/Druid[30] multiclass

In the long run, the multiclass gets better THAC0 & HP, and the same # of attacks per round.

[ 10-28-2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[Aerich]

True, but a F[13]/Druid is quite a bit better than F[9]/Dr - for the length of the game, the F[13]/Dr is quite sufficient, and the MC F/Dr gets nowhere near lvl 30/30. Unless you play solo, or on HoF mode.

Edit: Please note my response to your multiple posts in the Final Battle thread.

[ 10-28-2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[jmsteven]

If you're playing on normal mode, do you want to wait until late Severed Hand or Dorn's Deep to get Druid spells, or do you want them for the Vale of Shadows and Dragons Eye?

[galdur]

How can you reach 30/30 lvl? Isn't experience cap only 8 mil XP? It differs for HoF mode?

[G3MM4]

I just meant you should KEEP ROLLING until you get enough points to max-out STR, DEX, & CON. It shouldn't take too long to get the 94 total stat points for the build suggested.

If that's what you meant then you should have made yourself clear. I'm still a newbie when it comes to IWD. In any case, your maths was still wrong.

[G3MM4]

As for the rest of it, sorry, you've lost me completely! LOL.

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by G3MM4: quote: I just meant you should KEEP ROLLING until you get enough points to max-out STR, DEX, & CON. It shouldn't take too long to get the 94 total stat points for the build suggested.

If that's what you meant then you should have made yourself clear. I'm still a newbie when it comes to IWD. In any case, your maths was still wrong. [/QUOTE]In my post regarding your paladin, I wrote:

I would prioritize STR, DEX, & CON, and roll until I got: STR 18/51 DEX 18 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 13 CHA 17

I don't see how to be more direct than saying "ROLL UNTIL" you get these scores. The math is correct: 18 + 18 + 18 + 10 + 13 + 17 = 94 total stat points. If you have to sacrifice anything, make it INT.

Every warrior should have max or close to max STR, DEX, & CON. STR helps you hit and damage monsters; DEX helps to keep monsters from hitting you; and CON helps you live longer after you've been hit by monsters.

Here's an example of a recent Paladin addtion to my party. It only took a couple of minutes to roll:

Name......................... Archbishop Theodin

Gender....................... Male
Race......................... Human
Alignment.................... Lawful Good

Abilities:
Strength.................. 18/14
Dexterity................. 18
Constitution.............. 18
Intelligence.............. 10
Wisdom.................... 13
Charisma.................. 17

Armor Class.................. -1
Hit points................... 41/41

Class:
Class..................... Paladin
Level..................... 3
Experience................ 5070
Next Level................ 9000

Proficiencies:
THAC0..................... 18 ( 16 )
Number of Attacks......... 1½
Lore...................... 3
Turn Undead Level......... 1
Lay on Hands Amount....... 6
AI Script................. None

Saving Throws:
Paralyze/ Poison/ Death... 11
Rod/Staff/Wand............ 13
Petrify/Polymorph......... 12
Breath Weapon............. 14
Spells.................... 14

Weapon Proficiencies:
Bows...................... +
Maces..................... ++
Large Swords.............. ++

Armor Class Modifiers:
Crushing..................... -2
Missile...................... -1
Piercing..................... -1

Ability Bonuses:
To Hit.................... +1
Damage.................... +3
Open Doors................ +25
Weight Allowance.......... +220
Armor Class............... -4
Missile Adjustment........ +2
Reaction Adjustment....... +2
Hit Points/Level.......... +4
Reaction.................. +4

--------------------------------------------------
-- Inventory:
--------------------------------------------------

-- Helmet *
-- Splint Mail *
-- Medium Shield *

-- High Quality Morning Star *



The other stuff you didn't understand is a comparison between a single-class Cleric and a Ranger dual-classed to a Cleric at level 2. There are many advantages, as listed, for building your all-out Cleric this way.

There is also a comparison between the human dual-class Fighter/Druid and the half-elf multi-class Fighter/Druid.

[ 10-28-2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[NobleNick]

Well, we just about beat this horse to death, but, at the risk of being nauseating, I'll add a few more comments...

With Max HP and Con=18, the Multi-class Figther/Druid gets 13 HP per level for the first 9 levels. The extra 9 HP aren't that big a deal, and are only guaranteed if you play max HP (which I don't). If you allow HP variation in the game... The two are in a statistical dead heat.

1d10 +4 bonus for CON=18 gives 10+4=14 with max HP option. I'm sticking with 14HP per level: Don't otherwise know how to explain how a Fighter[9] can get 126 HP. The approximately 22 extra HP of DC over MC for F[9]/D[10], though not huge, is not trivial either. Even if you play without max HP (and my hat's off to you for doing so), my guess (I haven't played this way) is that it is not a statistical dead heat. Yes, in your case the DC COULD even end up with even fewer points than the MC, but, statisically, it's not likely: Advantage DC.

The problem with the example you provide is that it is a cross-sectional comparison and not a longitudinal one. The dual class stops improving as a fighter at 9th level, and the multiclass continues to improve as a fighter throughout the game. The advantage of 5 PP vs. 2 PP at 9th level is lost when the multi-class progresses to 13th level. The multi-class finishes the game with much better THAC0 than the dual-class.

There is a 1/2 ApR for 2 PP, and another at 5 PP. There is also 1/2 ApR at 7th level, and another at 13th level. A 9th level Fighter with 5 PP gets 2.5 ApR. A 13th level Fighter/Druid with 2 PP will have better THAC0 and also get 2.5 ApR.


The comparison is longitudinal, with empahsis on the superiority of the DC in the expansions and the IWD end game, for the game I play and for the game I expect Q3MM4 will play. What variation of the game are you playing? My advice to Q3MM4 is for an IWD/HoW/TotLM game on normal difficulty with max HP option set. I think this how most people play the first time through HoW. I would expect an MC F/D to END the game at roughly levels 15/17.

Given the above, at what levels is your MC getting the better THAC0 and gaining the ApR? (All the following are IIRC.) The MC gets 1 base ApR + 0.5 ApR at F[7] + 0.5 ApR at F[13] + ZERO ApR for stacked PP. The DC gets 1 base + 0.5 at F[7} + 0.5 ApR at 3PP + 1.0 ApR at 5PP. That gives the MC a total of 2 ApR and the DC gets 3 ApR: a 1ApR advantage (or a 0.5 ApR advantage, if I am wrong and it is only 0.5 incremental ApR gained at 5 PP.) Plus, by your numbers, the DC has a 2 point THAC0 bonus over the MC for higher stacked PP. and lets not forget the non-trivial 3 point damage bonus advantage for the DC. Again: At exactly which levels in which class do you say that the MC F[13]/D[14] obviates the advantage that the DC has?

I have not seen anything that shows where ANY of the DC advantages over the MC in melee are mitigated. Therefore I stand by the numbers in my previous post, wherein I showed that the DC F[9]/D[10+] dishes out OVER TWICE the damage of the MC F/D of the same XP in every melee situation where the character fights as an un-shape-changed Fighter using Scimitar. In addition, I mentioned that the DC F/D also progresses to higher Druid levels than MC does for a normal IWD/HoW/TotLM game.

I am not trying to be snotty nor facetious. If there really is a benefit to the MC that I'm not aware of, then I would like to know about it; because, as you pointed out, building the DC can leave the character in an awkward state for a while. If you could show me, to my satisfaction for the game options I'm talking about (e.g., normal IWD/HoW/TotLM game with STR=DEX=CON=18 and max HP option), that the DC F[13]/D[14] or even DC F[9]/D[15] is not superior in melee to the MC F[13]/D[14], then (even with the Druid class advantage noted above) I would likely ditch the DC.

I think my point about using all skills all the time is probably one of the better reasons for choosing a multiclass over the dual-class. If you have a party of 6, you will probably have to do the first three chapters of the game without a druid.

I agree. Roleplaying considerations are another very good reason. Not everybody wants to be a dirty, greasy power gamer.

The only dual-class I think is really worth the trouble is having a Ranger dual to a Cleric at level 2 instead of just a single class Cleric. Lots of advantages with just 2 levels of Ranger.

Yes, this is a nice trick. I offer the same type of trick to those wanting an Single Class ANYTHING. Going to just Fighter[3] gives them 42HP, 3PP in LongBow or Sling and 2 PP in a melee weapon (or vice versa). For example, that is about the same number of PP that a Mage would have to progress to level 18 to get; and the SC Mage doesn't get to stack them and the Mage doesn't get to use a bow of any kind, much less LongBow. Spending several thousand XP to toughen up your Mage and gain a top-notch ranged warrior is a no-brainer, unless a player's role play considerations prohibit it. Of course, I would take that advantage to the extreme, if doing HoW+, and DC to Mage at a Fighter level of 9 to 13, inclusive.

Which reminds me, The biggest beef I have about my DC Fighter[10]/Druid is that he is not a DC Fighter[13]/Druid.

I have a DC Ranger[12?]/Cleric which turned out a lot better than I had expected he would. He is currently the leader of my party in TotLM, and the tank, and definitely my favorite "mistake." I hereby recant on my "Ranger Rick doesn't Rock" post of over a year ago.

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