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Old 10-28-2002, 07:47 PM   #31
Downunda
Set - Egyptian God of Chaos
 

Join Date: January 7, 2002
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Age: 45
Posts: 2,975
I'm not bashing anyone or anything (apart from when I give Johnny the occasional *smack* )

There's no need to "defend" your country and way of life because I am not "attacking" it as such. I am merely pointing out the feeling I get from some americans. And I am not specifically refering to members of this board.

I cried with you on Sept 12th last year, I was in shock with you on Sept 12th last year and I am all for bringing those responsible to justice and I hope beyond hope that the events of Sept 11th never happen again. It doesn't deserve to happen to any country; rich, poor, developed, undeveloped.

Again, I never meant to upset you and I'm sorry for that. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-28-2002, 07:48 PM   #32
Attalus
Symbol of Bane
 

Join Date: November 26, 2001
Location: Texas
Age: 75
Posts: 8,167
LOL, yes Charean, you have to explain why so many people who don't have an ego thing in this believe, as I do, that we need to go and take Saddam out.
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Old 10-28-2002, 09:10 PM   #33
Iron_Ranger
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Join Date: August 18, 2002
Location: Where Eagles Dare
Age: 35
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
quote:
Originally posted by Iron_Ranger:
Take this for example:

Say you have the nicest house on your block. And everyone else doesnt like you for it. Do you care? No you dont. If that turns to violence, are you to blame? No your not. Why should you be held responable for something that you have? We could get into a big debate over how we got it, but whats done is done, you cant change the past. You can only try to do whats best for the present and furture.
You should not be responsible for their ills, IR, but it is human nature for them to (a) covet and (b) dislike your advantage, and you with it. To make it worse, if they come to you with problems seeking leadership (as you are obviously the one in the neighborhood who knows how to keep your house), and you scoff at them, or, worse, abuse and/or take advantage of them, then their hatred grows. Again, it's not your fault.

Ok, explain. How do we scoff at other nations?

So, you are then understandably offended, angry, and upset - but NOT (if you have a brain) *surprised* - when they "burn down your house and sleep with your daughter." Wouldn't you have been better off helping them out to begin with, or at least not scoffing at them?

Heh, I was going to use the following statment in another part of the post but it seems to fit here better. Cut through the metaphores. The burning down the house statment could be compaired to Sept 11th no? Ok, now whats strange is, you say wouldnt it have been better if we helped in the begining, well, we did just that, he helped Afghanastan against the Soviets in 1980, and then we get branded as setting up the Taliban. Whats even more strange (well maybe not) is that there was a Democrate in office at the time.

Look - I am sure that not every part of my above extended metaphor applies to US international relations, but you started the metaphor thing so don't hold it against me if I got creative.

Not holding you against it at all.

[EDIT] I didn't read your post (immediately above) before I posted this, so I think the issue has already been sufficiently addressed. And, I think we see eye-to-eye on it. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]
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Old 10-29-2002, 07:26 AM   #34
Barry the Sprout
White Dragon
 

Join Date: October 19, 2001
Location: York, UK.
Age: 41
Posts: 1,815
Just a quick point Iron Ranger (and others, of course):

You admit that people are mad at the USA, you also admit that this anger is a large cause of the actual and potential terrorist attacks on America. Without going too much into the issue of whether or not the anger in question is justified (been there, done that... got the scars...) isn't it simply rational to want to care about the problem? If you ignore the causes of international terrorism and just go around bombing people then, I hate to say it, its quite likely to happen again.

It's always been my position that America didn't "deserve" the Sept 11th attacks, but maybe I think precisely this attitude is why people didn't see them coming. Ignoring this feeling, right or wrong, is a very dangerous course of action.
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:04 AM   #35
Nachtrafe
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Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 51
Posts: 889
Question Mark

Quote:
Originally posted by Downunda:
But if you have the nicest house on the block, why do you need to keep shoving that fact in peoples faces all the time. And why do you need to be picking on someone that doesn't have a house that's as nice as yours?

I agree with you about "what's done is done" but instead of forgetting about it, how about trying to set it right?
Simple Dunda...WE DONT! Sure, we do our best to maintain the lawn, and paint the walls. But we're not forcing anyone to watch. And we have our own problems. Rats in the bastment, silverfish in the walls, and crap on the tv. But we are pretty good about policing our own. And when we have the cleaning vehicle come down the road to flush out the spetic tank, why, then the WHOLE neighborhood feels the need to come out and kibitz, and tell *US* how 'we're not doing it right'.

And then, what happens when we look out at the rest of the neighborhood and see that some people are in less nice houses, or, are being forced by some nutjob to live 20 to a room with little food and no freedom, then we are forced, by simple compassion if nothing else, to react and try to help those persons? *WE* are the ones who are derided. *WE* are the ones accused of being 'mean-spirited' or of 'sticking our noses in'. Why is that? To be honest, I still haven't figured that one out yet.

*tosses [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] on the table*

EDITED: Cause I narfed up the quotes. :S

[ 10-29-2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:56 AM   #36
whacky
Emerald Dragon
 

Join Date: July 16, 2002
Location: The Abyss
Age: 36
Posts: 904
Quote:
Originally posted by Charean:
I don't notice the "holier than thou" attitude myself. I see a few who are trying to defend their way of life and the country they live in to those who continually tell us how bad we are.

It is really hard to take the continual barrage.

Anyone would notice that I usually say nothing about this, but I don't bash other countries and I certainly don't expect ANYONE ELSE to bash mine.

Since 9-11, there is increasing freedom on this board to say that we were asking for it or whatever, which doesn't bother me. But when it continues on and on like this I begin to wonder how prejudiced people are. Again. I don't do this to others and for it to continue bothers me a great deal.

I may sound like I am a witch, but right now I am at the end of my rope. My country is considering a war which I am totally against because our President feels the need to assert himself. This is affecting many people that I know. Also our economy hasn't really recovered from that and I find it difficult to make ends meet. I am not blaming anyone, but my nerves are frazzled. In the last year this country has been under attack from many sides and after a while it will get to you.

I would like to know how many others could deal with the amount of difficulty we have had with the same amount of fortitude.
Note: This by no means is meant to offend anyone and if it does, i'm ready to take my words back and apologize [img]smile.gif[/img]

There is something i figured a while back, and when Charean posted this i'd like to post it. The fact that when some entity begins to excel another, the one left behind can either be a sour loser or a good competitor and look forward to the excellent ones [img]smile.gif[/img] Hopelessly this aint the case in this world as people resort to negative remarks and criticism , they only find the glass half empty, maybe this is why the US is bashed too much perhaps, i for one am glad that i'm not biased about anything and sure Charean i dont expect it from people either, but no this has to go on. Surely i might be wrong, but this is not aimed at any board member, it was just an analysis of general human behaviour and for all i know, we have no right to jugde anyone, for we are not perfect in out knowledge and understanding.
I'm sorry if it hurts anyone but i will again stress that this is not aimed at any board member, and i am not a US citizen either.
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:29 AM   #37
Timber Loftis
40th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Quote:
Originally posted by Downunda:
quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Oh no..... not again.
What? Did you fart?[/QUOTE]I think he was only showing his precognitive abilities, as the posts immediately following proved rather nicely.

Iron Ranger, I'd reply to your post and try to puzzle out where along the way America went way wrong with the Muslim world, but I think I've decided there's wisdom in just not helping to begin with. Of course, I'm feeling rather like a social darwinist today, and maybe tomorrow I'll be more charitable. I say Malthus was right: We should just let the streets run with sewage in our metaphorical little neighborhood, and at least we'll know the strongest have survived to procreate. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:33 AM   #38
MagiK
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
Simple Dunda...WE DONT! Sure, we do our best to maintain the lawn, and paint the walls. But we're not forcing anyone to watch. And we have our own problems. Rats in the bastment, silverfish in the walls, and crap on the tv. But we are pretty good about policing our own. And when we have the cleaning vehicle come down the road to flush out the spetic tank, why, then the WHOLE neighborhood feels the need to come out and kibitz, and tell *US* how 'we're not doing it right'.

And then, what happens when we look out at the rest of the neighborhood and see that some people are in less nice houses, or, are being forced by some nutjob to live 20 to a room with little food and no freedom, then we are forced, by simple compassion if nothing else, to react and try to help those persons? *WE* are the ones who are derided. *WE* are the ones accused of being 'mean-spirited' or of 'sticking our noses in'. Why is that? To be honest, I still haven't figured that one out yet.

*tosses [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] on the table*

EDITED: Cause I narfed up the quotes. :S
Just wanted to say, thought this was a wonderful allegory [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 10-29-2002, 10:49 AM   #39
Charean
Hathor
 

Join Date: March 6, 2001
Location: Waxahachie, TX
Age: 59
Posts: 2,201
As far as Bush and his reasons for going after Saddam: I am not convinced this is for the good of this country. I haven't seen convincing evidence that he is linked to Bin Laden. I also wonder why something was not done sooner when he didn't comply with UN regs. At this point, going in there on our own will only sow dissent with the rest of the UN. I think that would be a huge mistake. Not only would we have only ourselves to rely on, but Saddam may pull in some allies and we may not be able to beat back all of them. From what the White House says, they only want regime change. I am sure that they can pull that off without going to war. Whatever happened to simple assassinations? That would be a LOT more efficient. (And before I get bashed for being Liberal - I am not. I am a moderate and registered Independent. I do not toe party lines of Anyone.)

As far as us going in to Kuwait: Oddly enough, I was over there. Oil was a factor, but not the main one. As far as most of the military and me were concerned, we were going over there to protect a country that could not defend itself. It was a UN effort and they all went in there to keep Kuwait free of a dictator.
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Old 10-29-2002, 11:14 AM   #40
johnny
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Join Date: April 15, 2002
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 16,981
Funny statement about the house. It may look big and flashy on the outside, but inside it's pretty messy if you ask me. Your "big nice house" needs some cleaning up.
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