More ramblings from me.

[RevRuby]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: AFAIK Moni didn't leave because of a religious discussion. Also AFAIK the moratorium on religion wasn't because people were being immature (ie rude and disrespectful) I think it was just that there was an absolute glut of religious topics in which a lot of (sometimes heated) decate was going on where no real outcomes were achieved (as in, there is a god, no there isn't, prove it, type things) [img]smile.gif[/img] .

i didn't say moni left because of religious discussion, i said she left because of immature ppl making immature comments. yes i placed the words "religious discussions" in the same sentence as the thought of moni leaving but i in no way intended to imply a connection between the two.

p.s. i have no idea why these discussions were banned i wasn't here when it happened. i just know my husband advised me against them.

[ 10-23-2002, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: RevRuby ]

[Ishanda]

I was kinda looking for the go-ahead before I add my fifty cents....

Just picking up on the very first line...

I spent a year studying the nature of religion and belief systems, and from my point of view you have to seperate the concept Religion from Belief.

Religion is organized and as such a PURELY social phenomenon, that is people belong to a certain denominated religion, i.e. Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Yes, unfortunately this is true. The transferrence of religion from generation to generation (as the process implies) is social in nature and would not exist if it were not for the social context. If there were no school, family, frineds, media telling (converting towards?) someone about a particular religion, would that person ever be a part of that religion?

Belief is totally different. It is not dependent on social transferrence. It is within all our nature to wonder about our place in the universe and we by necesity develop a system of beliefs. It came as a shocking surprise to me to discover how similar beliefs are amongst many people in DIFFERENT religious systems.

As such, EVERY single person in the world has belief but not everyone has religion. From a purely logical point of view, Atheism is neither for the weak nor strong minded person since it is not a religion, but a belief about the nature of all things. Interestingly, Agnosticism is logically not a valid form of belief. LOL...you can not not believe that you have no beliefs.

OK, before I get shot down in flames I'll go now

[Yorick]

Originally posted by RevRuby: ]i didn't say moni left because of religious discussion, i said she left because of immature ppl making immature comments. yes i placed the words "religious discussions" in the same sentence as the thought of moni leaving but i in no way intended to imply a connection between the two. p.s. i have no idea why these discussions were banned i wasn't here when it happened. i just know my husband advised me against them.

Dispute can happen between mature people as well. The only people I saw having a heated exchange with Moni are two of the most polite, courteous and respect according people on the internet.

Conflict is a part of life.

Anyhow regarding religious topics, you may have been advised against them, but they are the posts I most enjoy contributing in. [img]smile.gif[/img] When done with respect, they get to the core of the meaning of life. Real stuff not :

"hi all, back from dinner"
"hi what did you eat"
"salmon moose, pass me a beer" *grinz*
*passes a beer*
*drinks beer*
*burps*
*farts*
LOL!
ROTFL!!
ROTFLMAO!!!
"Yeah well bye, Moms calling me for dinner"
"Didn't you just eat?"
"Oh I lied sorry LOL!
ROTFL
ROTFLMAO
*burps*......etc etc

Or we can occasionally talk about the essence of being, the meaning of life, differing perceptions on who or what we live for, worship and find meaning in. And perhaps learn about each other.

[ 10-23-2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ishanda: I was kinda looking for the go-ahead before I add my fifty cents.... Just picking up on the very first line... I spent a year studying the nature of religion and belief systems, and from my point of view you have to seperate the concept Religion from Belief. Religion is organized and as such a PURELY social phenomenon, that is people belong to a certain denominated religion, i.e. Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Yes, unfortunately this is true. The transferrence of religion from generation to generation (as the process implies) is social in nature and would not exist if it were not for the social context. If there were no school, family, frineds, media telling (converting towards?) someone about a particular religion, would that person ever be a part of that religion? Belief is totally different. It is not dependent on social transferrence. It is within all our nature to wonder about our place in the universe and we by necesity develop a system of beliefs. It came as a shocking surprise to me to discover how similar beliefs are amongst many people in DIFFERENT religious systems. As such, EVERY single person in the world has belief but not everyone has religion. From a purely logical point of view, Atheism is neither for the weak nor strong minded person since it is not a religion, but a belief about the nature of all things. Interestingly, Agnosticism is logically not a valid form of belief. LOL...you can not not believe that you have no beliefs. OK, before I get shot down in flames I'll go now

Thanks for your view. [img]smile.gif[/img] No flames from me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by antryg: No. I don't drink. I have just discovered that if you use enough words you approach the speed of light and time slows down. At least this way everybody can get home before the football game starts.

We must have gone to the same church when I lved in Dallas

[Dagorion]

I don’t know what kind of a reaction this will have but I really feel the need to say it anyway.
I *believe* that if there is an entity that can create and entire existence then their will must be so mind-boggelingly hard do understand that no human could ever figure it out! So I have long since decided that if people want to understand god they are wasting their time, so that basically makes it INPOSSIBLE to prove weather god does exist because I have had people say to me "If you cant understand him then how do you know he exists?" (At this point I start getting a migraine) and I reply "Oh, is that the time? I have to go..." and proceed to get away from the annoying person.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dagorion: I don’t know what kind of a reaction this will have but I really feel the need to say it anyway. I *believe* that if there is an entity that can create and entire existence then their will must be so mind-boggelingly hard do understand that no human could ever figure it out! So I have long since decided that if people want to understand god they are wasting their time, so that basically makes it INPOSSIBLE to prove weather god does exist because I have had people say to me "If you cant understand him then how do you know he exists?" (At this point I start getting a migraine) and I reply "Oh, is that the time? I have to go..." and proceed to get away from the annoying person.

Good points.

I don't try and comprehend God. I just try to know and love and be loved by him.

Amazing that a being so beyond comprehension and limitation, could desire to be known and have relationship with us. [img]smile.gif[/img]

That's how I see it.

[Timber Loftis]

Boy, this is a can of worms. Not because it's bad, just because there is so much to say on it.

1. On the Nature of Religion
I see religion as a double-edged sword from a sociological perspective. True, religion has resulted in many wars and deaths. On the whole, however, I find religion a good thing to have in society. This is because, from all I've found, every religion has one thing in common that it teaches and that is central to a society's existence: It gives people a reason to take responsibility for their actions beyond the end of their lives and beyond the immediate bad ramifications such acts may have on the person. For some religions, this is enforced with a stick: "You will not sin or you will go to Hell." In others, it's a carrot: "If you live a good life you may get to heaven," or "If you live in balance, you may achieve nirvana." Some do it with both. If you doubt that this is common to all religions, I welcome discredit to this theory. I will note that even the Satanic religion promotes personal responsibility and culpability for your actions, though on a different moral scale.

Regardless, so long as you take responsibility for your actions beyond the end of your life, whether it be in heaven or simply because you want to make the world a better place for your kids, you are okay in my book. In short, I feel that if we are all striving to live the "good life," sooner or later we'll get there - wherever that is.

2. On the Existence of God
On a personal level, however, I see no reason to bother believing in the Christian God I was brought up to worship. Who created the universe? The answer "God" means nothing. You have replaced one unknown with another, that's all. For me, it is sufficient to know that the universe *is* and *has been* and will eternally *be.* I don't need to create a benevolent immortal being that I don't understand the nature of to explain the existence of other things I don't understand the nature of. I recognize my ignorance as to the ultimate secrets of infinity and eternity and move on. The Universe itself is infinite and all-knowing, and I am fine with that. Accordingly, I humbly believe, though I wish it were untrue, that we are all food for worms.

3. On My Own Elitism
I feel I try to live a "good life" and be honorable and have culpability for my actions beyond the end of my existence. I don't do this because there is any punishment or reward lined up for me. I simply do it because it is the right thing to do.

As I said, I see religion as a "good" thing because it encourages "good" behavior and "good" intentions in people. What's obvious in this outlook of mine is that I feel *I* don't need religion because *I* am smart enough to figure out the right thing on my own and because *I* have the character to attempt to do "good" with or without a diety in my life.
Therein lies a sad fact: I'm a horrible elitist. I think I'm smart enough to get along without religion, but I mistrust the ability of society as a whole to do so, and I thus like organized religion.

In fact, and even worse, I sometimes look down on those I see in religous gatherings. I suspect some of them are there for selfish reasons, and I tend to have a twinge of scorn for those who need a "carrot" or "stick" to encourage them to be good people.

4. On Teleology:

If there is any one "immortal soul" I feel humans possess, it is the immortal story of a birth, growth, maturation, and self-realization as a *Species*. We as a group, a species-being, will grow up, mature, and learn to live in balance with the universe or perish. Well, we might perish anyway. But the immortality I see is in our story as a whole, our teleological development (there's your 50 cent word for the day ).

Sorry to ramble. Just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] .
DISCLAIMER: Please note that I am constantly writing, reading, researching, and learning regarding the statement of being. There is no being without the process of becoming, and the views stated herein are subject to change without notice. This is opinion is void where legally prohibited.

[ 10-23-2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[antryg]

When talking about religion it should first be noted that you can have religion without a god. Examples of this would include national religions. (Obedience, faith,loyalty,etc. are owed to the state) Communist governments would fit this mold; so is the way that nationalism is expressed by some in the United States.
There IS a difference between fact, truth and belief. Facts can be scientifically proven and duplicated. Remember that fact can change. (The earth is flat. The atom is the smallest part of matter.) Beliefs are things which are true but which are not factual. That does not mean that belief cannot become factual. We (the modern world) had no facts to prove that there were an actual Sodom and Gemorah until the 1950's. Now we have actual archeolgical sites and artifacts to confirm religious writings. For all I know science (a religion in its own right for some) may one day prove the existence of God or gods. The more we learn the more aware of how ignorant we really are becomes. Finally what is true may be factual or something that is believed.
Please let me know if you can agree to these groundrules for discussion.

[Timber Loftis]

Antryg, I guess I agree with most of your ground rules for discussion. However, the one I don't understand is the assertion that "truth is something that is factual or is believed." I don't think something is *true* just because it is believed. It may be "true" to the belief-holder. But, I think a belief is only *true* if you can philosophically back it up (via logic, analysis, phenomenology, or any of the myriad valid means of philosophical proof). Am I misunderstanding you?