Stoned to death for adultery

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Thoran: Sadly this is just the tip of the perverbial iceberg when it comes to abuse of women in Fundamentalist Islamic countries. Not unlike Christianity, Islam started out with women as leaders in the early days... only to have men firmly take the mantle of authority and push women out, sadly with Islam it went even further to a marginalization of women, turning them into property essentially. I know that most Muslims do NOT ascribe to this, but in Africa and the Middle East women are abused and mutilated by their paranoid husbands, and it's perfectly legal. I don't have anything against religion, but I do have something against how religion is used as a justification for fanaticism and abuse in so many places. It makes me wonder if we would all be better off without religon at all... as John Lennin suggested.

Not to nitpick, but the abuse of women in Africa is not all to do with the Islamic religion.
A horrible and inhuman tradition such as female circumcision is in fact a cultural phenomenon practised by Christians as well as Muslims.
The incessant raping taking place in countries like South Africa are also not connected to the Islam. In fact they are often culture/tradition-induced as well. A common myth holds that HIV can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin - this leads to the rape of young women and even children.
The Islam or any other religion isn't the problem: human cruelty and INhumanity are. And these unfortunately are universal.

[ 10-04-2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

[quote]Originally posted by Melusine:

A common myth holds that HIV can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin - this leads to the rape of young women and even children. The Islam or any other religion isn't the problem: human cruelty and INhumanity are. And these unfortunately are universal.

Thats disgusting... that means they're just spreading it... rather then containing it... its ill! :| *looks appaled*

[Azred]

This situation puts many people into a couple of quandries.
1) If other nations try to interfere or influence the Nigerian court to reverse itself, then that is interfering with that country's rights of sovereignty. If one country interferes with another, then the precedent has been set for any country to have its soverignty overridden.
2) Anyone who speaks up that this woman should not be stoned (when she has been convicted of a crime that carries the death penalty) yet thinks that the death penalty is acceptable in America (or anywhere) becomes a hypocrite.

I agree that this is very sad, that this woman faces a horrible death for something so trivial as a "moral failure". [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] That alone points out one of the main troubling facets of this story: to me a moral failure is not a big deal but it is to many in other places in the world.

How can Nigeria be influenced? Trade embargoes? I don't have figures, but I can't see that Nigeria has too terribly much in the way of exports. Tourism boycotts? I don't see many people lining up for a week-long vacation in Nigeria. About the only thing you can do is limit the things you import into Nigeria, but that opens up the can of worms from #1 above.

Realistically, you won't see any Western governments stepping up to the plate for this woman. They can't afford to, as sad as that is.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Azred: This situation puts many people into a couple of quandries. 1) If other nations try to interfere or influence the Nigerian court to reverse itself, then that is interfering with that country's rights of sovereignty. If one country interferes with another, then the precedent has been set for any country to have its soverignty overridden. 2) Anyone who speaks up that this woman should not be stoned (when she has been convicted of a crime that carries the death penalty) yet thinks that the death penalty is acceptable in America (or anywhere) becomes a hypocrite. I agree that this is very sad, that this woman faces a horrible death for something so trivial as a "moral failure". [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] That alone points out one of the main troubling facets of this story: to me a moral failure is not a big deal but it is to many in other places in the world. How can Nigeria be influenced? Trade embargoes? I don't have figures, but I can't see that Nigeria has too terribly much in the way of exports. Tourism boycotts? I don't see many people lining up for a week-long vacation in Nigeria. About the only thing you can do is limit the things you import into Nigeria, but that opens up the can of worms from #1 above. Realistically, you won't see any Western governments stepping up to the plate for this woman. They can't afford to, as sad as that is.

1.) Political pressure from the rest of the world can be very influental. No one's going to step in and stop it, but Nigeria wants recoginition from the world and to be seen as a modern country. That's the reason they tried so hard to get the Ms. Whatever pageant in the first place. The President of the country has already come forward and said he thinks it's unjust, but he can't stop it for political reasons. He's Christian and the rule of law is a subdivision of Islam. He needs the support of the Muslim population from the North, so while he's willing to say it's wrong(probably dangerous for him) he won't intervene.

2.) I don't think being in favor of the death penalty makes an argument against this action hypocritical. I, personally, am not saying we can kill "our" guilty but they can't, and that's not going to be the argument from those who have the death penalty. It's the injustice of it all. Women are targeted by the law while men are absolved or, at least, ignored. A raped woman is punished more than her rapist, that is if the rapist is punished at all.

This form of government has only been around for the past two years in Nigeria and has been contested. Nigeria wants to be considered a modern country, and it's important they realize this type action will set their effort back considerably.

A scholar of Islam today said it's an injustice even under that extreme form of Islamic Law because while Islam does provide harsh punishments, Jesus(who they consider a profit) offered forgiveness, and Mohammad offered mercy.

[ 10-04-2002, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[andrewas]

Even if the death sentence for warranted (IMHO in serious rape cases ONLY), stoning is barbaric.

But I hear of worse. In palastine last year a criminal (story didnt say what he did) was sentenced to watch his (innocent) litte sister being publicly raped by four men.

Some days the scottish justice system dosent seem to be so bad after all.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

don't assume religion to be bad just because of extremists - in many cases it provides a good ethical upbringing for children

I though parents were supposed to provide an "ethical" upbringing for children.Also, who is to say which religeon provides the best ethics for an upbringing? For instance will judeaism or satanism provide a more "ethical" upbringing for children , and why??

Back on topic:
While you may not agree with the policy in Nigeria you have no right to interfere with them. How would you feel if another countrie told you how to run your affairs simply because they found them distastefull. In France it is commonplace for women to sunbathe topless , in America they arrest you for it. Does this mean we must force thoes immoral French people to not let their women run around topless? Maybe we should force thoes crazy Americans to allow it?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: don't assume religion to be bad just because of extremists - in many cases it provides a good ethical upbringing for children

I though parents were supposed to provide an "ethical" upbringing for children.Also, who is to say which religeon provides the best ethics for an upbringing? For instance will judeaism or satanism provide a more "ethical" upbringing for children , and why??

Back on topic:
While you may not agree with the policy in Nigeria you have no right to interfere with them. How would you feel if another countrie told you how to run your affairs simply because they found them distastefull. In France it is commonplace for women to sunbathe topless , in America they arrest you for it. Does this mean we must force thoes immoral French people to not let their women run around topless? Maybe we should force thoes crazy Americans to allow it?[/QUOTE]In America, you MAY be arrested for sunbathing nude, but you won't be killed under the AUTHORITY of the government by have people bash you with stones. Is that really the argument you want to use? Naked boobs VS Death? Please don't say it's the same principle because it isn't even in the same neighborhood. By the way, you can do nothing about this and help it happen, if you think it's OK.

As far as a child's upbringing, of course it's up to the parents, but society, in general, has a huge part to play in their development, and it's the parent's job to effect society towards this goal. All of the major religions offer sound lessons which can be used to by parents to help instill values in their children. Extremist forms of any religion are the real problem. Extremist being those who don't follow the entire "custom", but instead, pick and choose what best suits THEIR needs.

Satanism? Nice way to force the point, but is that really a valid argument for or against this topic either? No I don't think Satanism is a good religion for children, but neither do I think the Excrement Worshipping Lover Of Her Almightiness Crapolia is either, do you?

Not my business? Maybe not, but do I give a crap? Nope! Wrong is wrong.

[ 10-04-2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Gregory Longshanks]

Though some may argue that we of other nations should respect national sovereignty and the customs of other countries and religions, I would suggest that the ultimate responsibility we all have is to advocate unconditional mercy and compassion for the accussed. And by the way that goes for our own who are accussed. Too often we hastily judge - and who are we?
Of course the foreigness of the manner of death repulses us, and though we are separated by culture and nation, it is our right nevertheless to protest should we wish - and it is our cry of outrage that gives us the bond of humanity and the hope for understanding.

[TheCrimsomBlade]

Thank god we don't live there or my ex-wife would be running from me and my bag of rocks

[Megabot]

I begin wondering if the peoples in that contry is STUPID or what? No normal people would do things like that so what the hell i is wrong with them anyway?