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Old 09-25-2001, 11:07 AM   #41
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
My cousin's name is Hero. She will never be a hero as she is a girl.

I have to point out that the original Hero was a girl, not a man!
Funny that, huh? That the descripive word for male courage and valour is the name of a woman.
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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-25-2001).]
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Old 09-25-2001, 12:58 PM   #42
Silver Cheetah
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781

[/QUOTE] Sometimes people who have occupied a land longer may not end up with it in the end. And borders become a state of mind rather than physical. oh nuts..why am I a misfit when it comes to writing ideas (:

[/QUOTE]

No worries, dude. Not a misfit, you just took the long way round to get there! I do that a lot, and then I realise after I've posted that I never got to the crux point after all.....

When you say borders become a state of mind, could you give me an example of what you mean? They seem pretty tangible in Britain, America, Australia and so on, (especially if you happen to be a refugee!)

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Old 09-25-2001, 03:11 PM   #43
Forscythe
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Join Date: September 8, 2001
Location: Trinidad WI.
Posts: 70
Every culture....People....civilisation even if they're peace lovin' must defend themselves.....Eg. the Buddhist....they are some of the most peace loving people but Buddhist monks developed the Martial arts....in fact All Kung Fu of chinese Martial arts come from Indian Buddhist monks....

The point is when a people are threatened survival becomes a priority and thus people may become violent....

People Who have not lived through wars or oppression don't seem to undertsand this!!

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Old 09-25-2001, 05:53 PM   #44
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
G'kar. You are now talking about inner peace. Very different from the peace you and I were discussing.

I shall avoid being insulted by your above posts because you do not know me. You should not presume one you don't know to have not experienced inner peace.

I repeat. Peace and conflict require two parties to exist.

Inner peace is something totally different, and let us say that I strongly, very very strongly disagree with the Dalai Lamas method of attaining it.

Sorry to be off-topic one more time everyone, but
Yorrick, if you read my original reply to forshyth (sp) and those that follow, I was talking about inner peace all along and it HAS real relevence in relation to creating peace between two warring parties.
And Im sorry to hear that you disagree with compassion as a way to attain inner-peace, as I know of the Dali lama's teachings. Forgive me if I unintentionally almost insulted you, my fish anology was meant to be less personal.Originally, was replying to a post by another member, sharing my knowledge of at least two cultures that handled violent oppression/attack with non-violence, it just so happens both of those cultures also practice ways to achieve "inner peace". Sorry if you disagree.

 
Old 09-25-2001, 08:10 PM   #45
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:

Sorry to be off-topic one more time everyone, but
Yorrick, if you read my original reply to forshyth (sp) and those that follow, I was talking about inner peace all along and it HAS real relevence in relation to creating peace between two warring parties.
And Im sorry to hear that you disagree with compassion as a way to attain inner-peace, as I know of the Dali lama's teachings. Forgive me if I unintentionally almost insulted you, my fish anology was meant to be less personal.Originally, was replying to a post by another member, sharing my knowledge of at least two cultures that handled violent oppression/attack with non-violence, it just so happens both of those cultures also practice ways to achieve "inner peace". Sorry if you disagree.

G'kar. Even so there is no peace if one practicing inner peace is the victim of violence. There is violence visited upon one filled with inner peace. Big difference to true peace.

I won't go into my problems with Buddhist thought. I have expressed them on other threads and won't take this thread off topic.


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Old 09-25-2001, 08:29 PM   #46
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
G'kar. Even so there is no peace if one practicing inner peace is the victim of violence. There is violence visited upon one filled with inner peace. Big difference to true peace.

I won't go into my problems with Buddhist thought. I have expressed them on other threads and won't take this thread off topic.


That is one way to perceive such a situation. Perhaps we are both right, or is that too much to ask? No hard feelings, I hope?

 
Old 09-25-2001, 08:38 PM   #47
Conan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


When you say borders become a state of mind, could you give me an example of what you mean?
Over the years continents have stayed mostly the same, it is mans drawn lines that have changed. You said yourself that Isreal only became a nation in 1948. But this ..how could it be. A nation strong and named thousands of years ago would lose this from a generation to the next. The land has stayed the same and decendents are there. My attempt to explain a American land battle still going on for only 200 or so years is nothing to this. My fault. My way of trying to relate I guess.
I did go to Isreal Silver C . I think that I was lucky to go when I did. Back in a time when I saw little violence and the worst of it was in the Golan heights. It must not have been to bad either..our tour bus drove us right by it.1981. Want a couple of photos?


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Old 09-25-2001, 08:56 PM   #48
Moridin
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

The reason I posted my post was because I am getting very tired of the media and political portrayal of the Palestinians as merely terrorists, whilst the Israelis, who fight just as dirty, are seen as being defenders of their state, and justified and legal in what they do, which is far from the case.

I do not know enough on the Isreal-Palestine conflict to post directly, but I would like to make a comment referring to the above. And not mean

I think the reason we get the media portrayal that we do is b/c we live in countries that support Isreal. If you look at any Muslim controlled newspapers, the story is quite different. It is Isreal that are terrorists and Palestine that is in the right. I think this is a matter of perspective. As unforturnate as it is, no newspaper/TV/Radio company in their right mind would ever tell the 'true' story...or anything near it!

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Old 09-26-2001, 03:23 AM   #49
WOLFGIR
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Sweden
Age: 50
Posts: 3,450
I agree with you here Moridin.. This is my third try to write something about this. First of all, just something for you all. Be easy with what you write to each other, making enemies here is truly not the way to solve this matter so be nice ok!

Well, I have studied the Israel and Palestinian conflict for a long time. Sweden has been activie for a long time to work for peace in the middle east. We have wotked for more than 25 years as it is. Shows alittle that the conflict is a heated one. Israels and Palestinians are far away from being in the state to say we or you are guilty. All the participants are guilty one way or another.

So why do Israel look like hereos here and Palestinians like criminals? Well due to many geographic and mind alike and old guilt probably. We felt bad for the Jewes being almost exterminated by the Nazis, and we let that almost happened! So we have a guilt in our past. One way to see it. Another is that the Israelians have fought for the right to the caountry as have every western country that has taken its form. War has defined it´s borders. Name one country not subject to this, their probably are some country, rules are meant to be broken it seems..

Another way is to view it like this. Israel is a democratic nation, with values in the society close to many western countries, and the Palestinians fight with bombs agaisnt both soldiers and schoolbuses. THe palestinian children are killed during streetfights as well. They are not in school.. Its a horrid war, but Israel feels like a western country, thats probably why we make them the hereos in the press. Hereos is wrong word to use here but well.. Some possible explanations.

My own view of all this I will not go into. These are generl lines I have drwned here. YOu can´t solve a long conflict like this here. Remember that the Palestinians were not the ruler of the land either. They have been abused by many of the arabic nations too. So much for brothers right?

Many other aspects and ideas have been taken up here as well. One is that time should have impact on who shpuld rule a piece of country. The idea that US would have to give back its country is very legit here if so. And well, why not rearange the whole Europe as you go?

The most significant aspect to has the right to a piece of land is the old brutish one. Ever played master of the hill(?) The kid that could keep every other kid from the hill is the master of the hill. That is true even today. If you have a piece of land, and have defended it agaisnt all opposition, you have it. Violence and blood have drawned almost every border in this world. SHould it be so? Well, ask yourself where you put the line to your home and you might see how hard it is not to come to a point where violence is close. If a neighbour attacks your kid. Will you not defend him, even if your kid hit your neighbours kid? Right and wrong are areas mostly defined by thoose victorious, to thoose that are likeminded.


OKI, this is getting long and nagging. But the idea is that we should try to evolve rith, well then it takes to to tango. If one tries to do Cha cha and the other one breakdance, you get no tango, no matter the music...

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Old 09-26-2001, 03:45 AM   #50
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
Great post, Wolfgir! Nice and balanced.
Only one analogy I object to, even though the analogy is true of what USUALLY happens. You said:

Violence and blood have drawned almost every border in this world. SHould it be so? Well, ask yourself where you put the line to your home and you might see how hard it is not to come to a point where violence is close. If a neighbour attacks your kid. Will you not defend him, even if your kid hit your neighbours kid? Right and wrong are areas mostly defined by thoose victorious, to thoose that are likeminded.

Yes, most parents will defend their child against another, even if the child is in the wrong. And that applies broadly to 'border' issues as well.
But not all parents are like that. Some look to find out WHO is right and who wrong before taking action, and if they discover their child is in the wrong, will punish him/her accordingly and make him/her apologise/make reparation for the wrong done.
If countries could be brought to act that way, instead of in the 'mine, right or wrong' way, we might get peace in this world. Of course the liklihood of such balanced behaviour in such a savage species as ours is remote.



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