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Old 09-21-2001, 01:54 PM   #11
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grand-Ranger:


Do any of you know what would happen if you let 2000 calfs run wild? If you did you would not be for anti-hunting/Anti-meat eating and all that otehr anti stuff.

What animals are you referring to here? (Think this might be a case of different terminology) In the UK, calves are the progeny of cows and bulls. What does the word calf refer to in the US?


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Old 09-21-2001, 02:24 PM   #12
Absynthe
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Interesting parallels there, MagiK.
I am all for peaceful and nonviolent resolution of conflict whenever that is possible. The best approach is to try and live your life, or govern your nation, in such a way as to avoid creating conflict in the first place. However, there are situations that cannot be resolved peacefully, and in those cases, it is necessary to determine the desired outcome and prosecute the action with the smallest possible number of total casualties.
I don't see how this relates to the playing of games, however. CRPG's or PNP RPG's are constructs built around puzzle-solving and conflict resolution. These stories are made to have certain elements to be used as plot devices for the resolution of the tale, most often weapons and magic. The choices are nearly infinite, as the consequences have no more reality than the game itself. People often use this an outlet to explore the choices they would not make in their real life, as their are no real consequences.
To equate the actions taken in a fantasy drama setting as being concomitant with the actions taken in real life is to create a false comparison. The moral and ethical questions and their resolutions are created and resolved in two different and separate spheres, although one, the fantasy game world, is contained within the other.
People who are unable to distinguish the difference between fantasy and reality are considered to be un-sane by society. The distinction comes when one tries to impose or enact the rules which govern the fantasy sphere upon the real world. Clearly, this sort of activity can range from benign eccentricity to absolute sociopathy.
Not to insult anyones' intelligence here, but I would like to note that the attributes of a mental construct such as a fantasy world are also applicable to religious beliefs, political beliefs, a social order, or any other mental construct.


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[This message has been edited by Absynthe (edited 09-21-2001).]
 
Old 09-21-2001, 02:42 PM   #13
Silver Cheetah
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Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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h
Quote:
Originally posted by Grand-Ranger:


I am very anti-anti hunting. Meaning that I hunt often.

Do any of you know what would happen if you let 2000 calfs run wild? If you did you would not be for anti-hunting/Anti-meat eating and all that otehr anti stuff.

Leaving aside the 'anti-hunting' for a moment, your point on 'anti-meat eating'.

I take it you are referring to vegetarianism and veganism? I am a vegetarian, which means I do not eat meat or fish. There are lots of reasons why people don't choose to eat meat. Apart from the obvious health and environment reasons, I am motivated by what I know about intensive farming, (a lot!). The way animals are raised and slaughtered in the UK and Europe is, (with some few exceptions), disgusting and barbaric. The poultry industries are probably the best known examples. I haven't studied the US industries specificially, however, the little I do know suggests the situation is similar there.

I don't need to eat meat to live (by the way, I am 100% healthy, and look about 10 years younger than I am) and so I don't eat it. This isn't an attack on people who do eat meat - each to their own, but to dismiss 'anti-meating' as part of 'that other anti-stuff' seems somewhat flip and dismissive to me, so I decided to put in my twopennorth. (PS Vegetarianism is very common in the UK, less so in the US, I believe...)


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-21-2001).]
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Old 09-21-2001, 03:08 PM   #14
Lord Shield
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
This is a serious inquiry as to the thoughts of the people it pertains to.

Thanks to Mel's thread and others, I noticed that most people on here are anti-death penalty due to the immorality of taking a sentient life, that most are anti-violence as in actions that should be taken in the war on terrorists and it appears that most are anti-gun and or hunting.

I personally am Pro Death Penalty and believe that some people need to be put out of societies misery, and I also believe that there is a time and a place where you go in and level the enemy with whatever weapon gets it done with minimum of friendly casulaties.

I do not understand how so many of you who are against violence and carnage can support the existance of games which promote just this kind of thing. Diablo, BG, pretty much any D&D type CRPG revolves around massive destruction of (supposedly) living (and some times undead) beings and not to mention First Person Shooters. I would think that you would prefer games that didn't involve violence. I realize that it is a "fantasy" setting but still violence gloified and used as a way to advance in a fantasy setting would to me be anathama if I were opposed to it in real life.

I hope I get some serious replies and not just flames from certain rather rude persons on here. I am interested in the Psychology of the "gamer" Thanks for your insights and thoughts in advance.

Pax

My answer is simple.

The death penalty takes a real life

A CRPG is simply changing variable values connected to a sprite

That's the only answer I would need. One is fiction, one is real

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Old 09-21-2001, 03:27 PM   #15
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Interesting parallels there, MagiK.
I am all for peaceful and nonviolent resolution of conflict whenever that is possible. The best approach is to try and live your life, or govern your nation, in such a way as to avoid creating conflict in the first place. However, there are situations that cannot be resolved peacefully, and in those cases, it is necessary to determine the desired outcome and prosecute the action with the smallest possible number of total casualties.
I don't see how this relates to the playing of games, however. CRPG's or PNP RPG's are constructs built around puzzle-solving and conflict resolution. These stories are made to have certain elements to be used as plot devices for the resolution of the tale, most often weapons and magic. The choices are nearly infinite, as the consequences have no more reality than the game itself. People often use this an outlet to explore the choices they would not make in their real life, as their are no real consequences.
To equate the actions taken in a fantasy drama setting as being concomitant with the actions taken in real life is to create a false comparison. The moral and ethical questions and their resolutions are created and resolved in two different and separate spheres, although one, the fantasy game world, is contained within the other.
People who are unable to distinguish the difference between fantasy and reality are considered to be un-sane by society. The distinction comes when one tries to impose or enact the rules which govern the fantasy sphere upon the real world. Clearly, this sort of activity can range from benign eccentricity to absolute sociopathy.
Not to insult anyones' intelligence here, but I would like to note that the attributes of a mental construct such as a fantasy world are also applicable to religious beliefs, political beliefs, a social order, or any other mental construct.

Im confused (no big revelation there) Are you saying you don't know that CRPG's while having a story line and some puzzles, actually make the violent destruction of virtual beings the only way to really advance your character? If you have played any of the current crop of CRPG's I think you had to have "virtually" participated in the destruction of many hundreds or even thousands of virtual beings and this in the fantasy setting constitutes violence. Or do you pose that virtual violence is not violence at all?



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Old 09-21-2001, 03:29 PM   #16
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Shield:
My answer is simple.

The death penalty takes a real life

A CRPG is simply changing variable values connected to a sprite

That's the only answer I would need. One is fiction, one is real

You missed the point of the question. How can you be anti-violence and yet revel in its virtual glorification in a recreational game? Are you not promoting in some fashion that which you stand against? This is a question about concepts and consistant messages. Not a debate of real vs fantasy.

But thanks for the input any way

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[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-21-2001).]
 
Old 09-21-2001, 03:32 PM   #17
Neb
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Well, I would prefer it if people could be rehabilitated, but sometimes some people are just too much of a danger to others so that it is necessary for their lives to be ended for the protection of others, what would be most humane, to let them rot away in a prison cell for the rest of their lives or to end it quickly?

As for CRPGs, well, any violence there is not real and it is a good way to get rid of some aggressions, I have the same thing as Saz, I can never play Evil, even if I manage to start out Evil I cannot resist the lure of Good and usually change somewhere about halfway through the game, strange really, since it's just a game.

As for the necessity of violence, let us take the current example of Osama Bin Laden, either we leave him alone and the continues to kill innocents or we either capture him or kill him, either way would require violence since he probably has quite a large amount of fanatical guards, I say that an attempt should be made to PEACEFULLY end his killing of innocents, but if it is unsuccesfull then I see it as necessary to end his life to protect others.

Those are my points of view, others may agree or disagree with them as they please.

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Old 09-21-2001, 03:43 PM   #18
MagiK
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Thanks for the input Neb


I still think people have missed the thing I was really rtrying to get at. If you as a person are totally against violence against living creatures, how then can you revel in and enjoy CRPG's or other computer games in which it is nesecary to go out and slaughter loads of virtual creatures. If you are against violence, would you not also be against the glorification of it in our recreation?

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[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-21-2001).]
 
Old 09-21-2001, 03:59 PM   #19
Absynthe
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Im confused (no big revelation there) Are you saying you don't know that CRPG's while having a story line and some puzzles, actually make the violent destruction of virtual beings the only way to really advance your character? If you have played any of the current crop of CRPG's I think you had to have "virtually" participated in the destruction of many hundreds or even thousands of virtual beings and this in the fantasy setting constitutes violence. Or do you pose that virtual violence is not violence at all?

Yes I have played nearly every CRPG currently on the shelf, and yes they do rely heavily on the violent destruction of some NPC's. I have chopped, hacked, bludgeoned and blasted my way through hundreds of hours of virtual destruction.
The key concept here is "virtual". This role-playing is not reality. In the better games, like BG and BGII, your character is dramatically affected by the choices you make, the monsters and NPC's you treatise with, or against, or kill. In real life, the choices I make dramatically affect the outcome of my life.
In a computer game, I am playing the role of a character. Sometimes the role offers choices I wouldn't choose in real life, but are consistent with the character I'm playing.
In real life the choices I'm faced with are sometimes of the "lesser of two evils" variety. (election years come to mind...) however, I don't get to reset, or load a saved game, or use a cheat code. It's real life, after all.

 
Old 09-21-2001, 04:01 PM   #20
Absynthe
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Thanks for the input Neb


I still think people have missed the thing I was really rtrying to get at. If you as a person are totally against violence against living creatures, how then can you revel in and enjoy CRPG's or other computer games in which it is nesecary to go out and slaughter loads of virtual creatures. If you are against violence, would you not also be against the glorification of it in our recreation?

The answers you are getting are consistent. Fantasy is Fantasy and Reality is Reality. What are you not getting here that you are asking for?


 
 


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