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Old 05-20-2002, 03:10 PM   #61
The.Relic
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I also voted no, and I am also one of those who does not own a gun, but I strongly believe in the rights of *RESPONSIBLE* citizens to own firearms for their personal protection, especially in their home, providing it is legal where you reside. I have also stared down the muzzle of a firearm on several occasions and it is not a pleasant experience. The problem here in the United States at least is that firearms are so prevelent be it purchased legally or illegally, and that if you disarm the law abiding citizens, only the military, police and criminals will have firearms. And criminals *WILL* always be able to find a way to aquire them. Since burglars here know that so many citizens own a firearm/firearms they are much more cautious about burglarizing homes and businesses because they know they may meet an armed response. If you take citizens firearms away from them, the criminals *WILL* risk becoming much more brazen in their efforts and robberies will increase.
I am very happy to see this discussion has remained so respectful this time around, as the last time it became rather heated. It would be nice if no one needed to own firearms for self defense, but this is not an ideal world and never will be. And I would certainly hope that no matter what our feelings on gun control are, that we would rather come home and find our spouse/family/children safe and alive and a would be burglar/rapist/murderer shot dead on our living room floor, than to come home and find our spouse/family/children brutally raped and or murdered because they had no way to defend themselves against a criminal with a gun. An attack dog/baseball bat/pipe/knife/sword/ectecta, will not save them from a potential gun wielding killer.

[ 05-20-2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: The.Relic ]
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Old 05-20-2002, 03:26 PM   #62
johnny
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Quote:
Originally posted by khazadman:
quote:
and dont give me any crap about how you need to defend yourselves, if you shoot someone you have murdered them, be it in self-defence or not.
I would rather die than kill another.
that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard.so you would rather die than defend yourself?how about your family?you mean you would let them die rather than defend them?why?just so you can claim some kind of perverted moral superiority?
Quote:
Unfortunately he'll be up for parole in 8yrs while the families of the men he shot in cold blood have to live with it for the rest of their lives.
eight years?what kind of penalties do they have for murder down there?
[/QUOTE]are you up for a laugh dude ? If you shoot and kill someone in holland you'll be of the hook in less than 2 years, the penalty for taxfraude normally is higher here than the penalty for murder. Sounds crazy, doesn't it ? But it's the truth. In some cases there isn't even a jailsentence involved, just some kind of psychological treatment.
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:13 PM   #63
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:
i know that you (magik) originally wanted only votes, but i still feel the need to add my two bits.

first off, i want to share this little statistic or fact. there are more guns per capita within isreal than in the united states. YET, isreal's murder rate is almost non-existent. this goes to show that guns ALONE are not the problem.

if you think logically and leave out all the warm fuzzy emotions from it, disarming the law abiding citizens will do very very little to bring down crime. in fact (or so i have heard) the armed robberies within nations that have banned firearms has risen, especially for home burglaries/robberies. because if you think about it if you were a criminal looking to break into someone's house, where would you rather go, the household with the gun or the one without. duh! thats a no brainer! what i'm trying to get at is that a burglar within the united states would probably think long and hard before entering a stranger's home. on the other hand, that same burglar within the united kingdom or austrailia would already know that that household was unarmed. again a no brainer.

although i do not own a firearm i must say that i feel that the beauty of the united states is in the fact that we are armed to the teeth. the reason is IMHO that if china or another nation down the road, got into an all out war with the US and knocked out our navy, army, marines, airforce and tried to invade...their troops wouldn't make it past CALIFORNIA !!
I can see what you mean, but it is not likely any nation would pull a "Red Dawn" on the US...just too big an area and too many people....not to mention that at the moment we are the top of the food chain as far as weapons go. The Logistics of an operation of that size is more than any country could pull together, it would be like trying to invade the Soviet Union and we all know how historicly unsuccessful that has been.
 
Old 05-20-2002, 04:16 PM   #64
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
[QB[/qb]
I know I've asked this question before but I've never really got an answer. How do American burglars know which houses have guns. Is there a central register of non-gun owning houses? Or do people put a sign up saying 'guns here' or 'no guns here - please burgle'. Of course our burglars know there are no guns in the house so more often than not they don't take guns with them.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Actually I believe unarmed robberies/burglaries are more common than the armed kind, but all crimes against individuals KNOWN to be armed are lower.

Jeff Foxworthy a US Comedian from the south put it best in one of his acts...When he described how his "redneck friends" house looks, and where you knew a gun lived (and if you want to know what kind of gun, just break into my house). Wish I could find the transcript of that so I could post it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-20-2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 05-20-2002, 05:31 PM   #65
the new JR Jansen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:
quote:
Posted By: JR Jansen
The difference being that the US has more serious crimes, aka armed robberies, murders. etc. Why ? Because it's easier for untrained people to get a gun. Not just a gun, but one that packs power. Again why do you need an SMG when a pistol will suffice ?
who said anything about arming yourself with a sub-machine gun?

and it's not about untrained people getting a gun and maybe using it. it's about criminals HAVING a gun, and you don't. thats all i'm trying to say.
[/QUOTE]The point is that owning an SMG is overkill. It is legal in certain states of the US to own it. Again, i don't have anything against responsible people owning a pistol or rifle but an SMG IS overkill.
It's all about untrained, and even worse, unbalanced people owning a gun. That's why so many people get shot over, well, nothing, if you think about it. If the criminal has a gun and you don't, i agree that, to put it mildly, you are at a disadvantage. But it's rather easy for untrained and unstable people to get one legally. The threat doesn't lie solely with the criminals. If you allow such a free selling of guns, overpowered guns to people who aren't carefull enough with them or are not totally balanced, you're going to get 'accidents'. Why do you need a very powerfull gun to protect yourself when a normal pistol will do ? This is my point. Again i do not have anything against trained and balanced people owning a gun but why does it have to be a powerfull one ?
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:37 PM   #66
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by the new JR Jansen:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:
quote:
Posted By: JR Jansen
The difference being that the US has more serious crimes, aka armed robberies, murders. etc. Why ? Because it's easier for untrained people to get a gun. Not just a gun, but one that packs power. Again why do you need an SMG when a pistol will suffice ?
who said anything about arming yourself with a sub-machine gun?

and it's not about untrained people getting a gun and maybe using it. it's about criminals HAVING a gun, and you don't. thats all i'm trying to say.
[/QUOTE]The point is that owning an SMG is overkill. It is legal in certain states of the US to own it. Again, i don't have anything against responsible people owning a pistol or rifle but an SMG IS overkill.
It's all about untrained, and even worse, unbalanced people owning a gun. That's why so many people get shot over, well, nothing, if you think about it. If the criminal has a gun and you don't, i agree that, to put it mildly, you are at a disadvantage. But it's rather easy for untrained and unstable people to get one legally. The threat doesn't lie solely with the criminals. If you allow such a free selling of guns, overpowered guns to people who aren't carefull enough with them or are not totally balanced, you're going to get 'accidents'. Why do you need a very powerfull gun to protect yourself when a normal pistol will do ? This is my point. Again i do not have anything against trained and balanced people owning a gun but why does it have to be a powerfull one ?
[/QUOTE]Contrary to media hysteria, not very many people get shot in the USA with Submachineguns, Machineguns or assault rifles. You are way way way more likely to be killed in a car wrek.....And I can assure you, if you are killed by a bullet...you do not give a damn wether it was from a hand gun, a rifle or a machine gun.

With over 400 MILLION firearms leglally owned in the USA the percentage of all firearms used to commit crimes is miniscule. Guns are not the problem.

Actually considering that there are roughly 300 million people in the USA, the percentage of anyone getting shot for any reason is quite low too. Someone else pointed out that only 67% of the murders are due to firearms...so almost half are due to other means.

[ 05-20-2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 05-20-2002, 05:56 PM   #67
Dramnek_Ulk
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:
you're missing the point. you see in the US our citizens CAN arm themselves, therefore the burglar knows that there COULD be an armed person within the house. but the defenseless people of the UK and other european nations, don't have that deterient.
come on bud don't be silly.[/QB]
Therefore the burglar takes a gun anyway, which means you are more likely to be shoot dead. The murder rates for the USA and England are quite telling you know…
In 1976 the murder rate per 100,000 in the U.S. was 9.1, but in England and Wales 1.1.
Also in 1981 62.4 % of mureders in the U.S.A were committed with guns.
It seems the less guns you have, the less murders you get.
 
Old 05-20-2002, 06:03 PM   #68
Dramnek_Ulk
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Contrary to media hysteria, not very many people get shot in the USA with Submachineguns, Machineguns or assault rifles. You are way way way more likely to be killed in a car wrek.....And I can assure you, if you are killed by a bullet...you do not give a damn wether it was from a hand gun, a rifle or a machine gun.

With over 400 MILLION firearms leglally owned in the USA the percentage of all firearms used to commit crimes is miniscule. Guns are not the problem.

Actually considering that there are roughly 300 million people in the USA, the percentage of anyone getting shot for any reason is quite low too. Someone else pointed out that only 67% of the murders are due to firearms...so almost half are due to other means.[/QB]
ONLY 67%!!!!???? That’s the majority you know.
Therefore if you banned all guns, logically the murder rate could decline by about 67%, just compare murder rates with firearms per 100,000 for England & America, The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
 
Old 05-20-2002, 06:55 PM   #69
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:
you're missing the point. you see in the US our citizens CAN arm themselves, therefore the burglar knows that there COULD be an armed person within the house. but the defenseless people of the UK and other european nations, don't have that deterient.
come on bud don't be silly.
Therefore the burglar takes a gun anyway, which means you are more likely to be shoot dead. The murder rates for the USA and England are quite telling you know…
In 1976 the murder rate per 100,000 in the U.S. was 9.1, but in England and Wales 1.1.
Also in 1981 62.4 % of mureders in the U.S.A were committed with guns.
It seems the less guns you have, the less murders you get.[/QB][/QUOTE]And the less personal freedom you have...funny that.

And Im still trying to figure out how you are going to make the criminals turn over all their illegal firearms after you disarm the populace?

[ 05-20-2002, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 05-20-2002, 07:05 PM   #70
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Contrary to media hysteria, not very many people get shot in the USA with Submachineguns, Machineguns or assault rifles. You are way way way more likely to be killed in a car wrek.....And I can assure you, if you are killed by a bullet...you do not give a damn wether it was from a hand gun, a rifle or a machine gun.

With over 400 MILLION firearms leglally owned in the USA the percentage of all firearms used to commit crimes is miniscule. Guns are not the problem.

Actually considering that there are roughly 300 million people in the USA, the percentage of anyone getting shot for any reason is quite low too. Someone else pointed out that only 67% of the murders are due to firearms...so almost half are due to other means.
ONLY 67%!!!!???? That’s the majority you know.
Therefore if you banned all guns, logically the murder rate could decline by about 67%, just compare murder rates with firearms per 100,000 for England & America, The proof of the pudding is in the eating.[/QB][/QUOTE]No, you would not cut the murder rate by 67% you would force the murderers to find some other and possibly more violent way to kill their victims.
 
 


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