Guns.

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: At least Sir T. didn't go right to the NRA and get his statistics.....

No. But he did post incorrect statistics about my country.

Sorry Sir Tainly, violent crime went DOWN after the gun control. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Post Donut edit:

eek!

Certainly sorry Sir Taliesin![/QUOTE]
Hey Yorick! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] If they are wrong then the website was wrong. But here is an example from the The University of Western Australia's Crime Research Center ( http://www.law.ecel.uwa.edu.au/crc/stats/facts.htm ).
It's not a complete picture, by any means. It shows Homicide statistics for Western Australia.

Murder and homicide trends in Western Australia, 1984-1996 (Rate per 100,000 resident population)

Year Murder
1984 1.2
1985 2.2
1986 1.5
1987 1.3
1988 1.6
1989 1.6
1990 1.6
1991 1.5
1992 2.1
1993 1.7
1994 2.2
1995 2.3
1996 1.1

I did edit this chart, but not the numbers. I took out some other classes such as attempted homicide and such. The chart didn't fit well here. At this same site I also found the following for 1999.

In 1999 the Statistics for Western Australia were 3.0 per 100,000 people, while the statistics for Australia as a whole was 3.9 per 100,000.

Strict Gun Control became a reality in Australia in 1996.

BTW, Guys let's keep this a nice topic! We had another Firearms related discussion some weeks ago that wasn't near this cantakerous. Let's keep this one the same way.

Epona and Donut MOVE away from there!

[ 05-23-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Epona and Donut MOVE away from there!

EVERYONE who was involved in the altercation needs to drop it...including YOU, Sir Taliesin. Everything has settled down nicely, and we don't need it getting started up again by singling people out.

To put it bluntly (and forgive my choice of epithet), crusted-over dogshit won't stink until someone takes a stick and stirs it up again. QUIT STIRRING.

-Sazerac

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by MagiK: In reply Yorick I would like address your bullets (pun intended) 1. not if properly handled. Lots of things are dangerous if you do not use them properly 2. None of the Gunsd I own and use regularly have taken any life. They serve their purpose of recreation. (paper targets and soda cans dont count as life) EDIT: Oops forgot my deer rifle...so only one of my guns has taken a life...sorry for the error. 3. A child with a pipe bomb (made from easily obtained household chemicals) can do as much or more damage than a kid with a gun. It isnt hard to figure out how to construct one. Your points are all valid, but still don't show a good reason to ban firearms...in my opinion at any rate.

Magik, I do disagree about what you are saying. I can believe you never used your guns to harm anyone, but what if one of your kids found one and accidentally used it ? You may reply that you kids are too well-educated, but then what about one of their friends ? No, no, guns in houses are waaay too dangerous.

And, Magik, a pipe-bomb is an entirely different matter than a gun. To use a pipe-bomb, you have to make it first, thus a kid that would use a pipe-bomb would do it on purpose, not accidentally.

Another point, from France when I'm living. We have hunters. Living in the country, I see some of them every day. And I cannot have a cat which is not neutralized because many hunters find it fun to shoot cats. . I had a cat several years ago that I refused to castrate, he died from hunters at the age of 3. I can show you the radio the vet took before the cat died - 18 bullets in the rear half of him. And as many in the front half. And every year, dozens of "accidents" happen with people getting shot while walking in the forest. Because a license to kill doesn't come with a licence of wisdom.

Many guns are not owned by responsible enough people. And even some otherwise responsible people can have a lapse - anyone can get very drunk, or depressed, which in conjunction with a gun at hands can lead to disastrous results.

And last, do you watch your house all the time ? There is always a chance that a group of youngsters may pick your lock while you are away, and find your gun collection ... How would you feel then, knowing your own gun has killed fellow humans ?

Originally posted by Sazerac: [QBTo put it bluntly (and forgive my choice of epithet), crusted-over dogshit won't stink until someone takes a stick and stirs it up again. QUIT STIRRING. -Sazerac[/QB]

Umm not to be disrespectful or anything...I just really need to know..is this first hand info you are dispensing here

Umm haha? heh? Well I thought the epithet was rather humorous...

Originally posted by Moiraine: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: In reply Yorick I would like address your bullets (pun intended) 1. not if properly handled. Lots of things are dangerous if you do not use them properly 2. None of the Gunsd I own and use regularly have taken any life. They serve their purpose of recreation. (paper targets and soda cans dont count as life) EDIT: Oops forgot my deer rifle...so only one of my guns has taken a life...sorry for the error. 3. A child with a pipe bomb (made from easily obtained household chemicals) can do as much or more damage than a kid with a gun. It isnt hard to figure out how to construct one. Your points are all valid, but still don't show a good reason to ban firearms...in my opinion at any rate.

Magik, I do disagree about what you are saying. I can believe you never used your guns to harm anyone, but what if one of your kids found one and accidentally used it ? You may reply that you kids are too well-educated, but then what about one of their friends ? No, no, guns in houses are waaay too dangerous.

And, Magik, a pipe-bomb is an entirely different matter than a gun. To use a pipe-bomb, you have to make it first, thus a kid that would use a pipe-bomb would do it on purpose, not accidentally.

Another point, from France when I'm living. We have hunters. Living in the country, I see some of them every day. And I cannot have a cat which is not neutralized because many hunters find it fun to shoot cats. . I had a cat several years ago that I refused to castrate, he died from hunters at the age of 3. I can show you the radio the vet took before the cat died - 18 bullets in the rear half of him. And as many in the front half. And every year, dozens of "accidents" happen with people getting shot while walking in the forest. Because a license to kill doesn't come with a licence of wisdom.

Many guns are not owned by responsible enough people. And even some otherwise responsible people can have a lapse - anyone can get very drunk, or depressed, which in conjunction with a gun at hands can lead to disastrous results.

And last, do you watch your house all the time ? There is always a chance that a group of youngsters may pick your lock while you are away, and find your gun collection ... How would you feel then, knowing your own gun has killed fellow humans ?[/QUOTE]Moiraine your points are all valid. The kids and guns issue is one that could take weeks to really get into, technically in most places in the USA the guns are supposed to have trigger locks so that kids can't "accidently" do what you say....Unfortunately untill we do away with irresponsible parents kids are in danger not only from guns but a whole host of other problems.

As for hunters shooting cats..I grew up with a few people like that and I can assure you that I find them quite as disgusting as you do. (even if Im completley allergic to cats).

As for watching my guns ever second of every day, No of course I don't but you can say "What If" about a lot of things. I also have Knives and a short sword that could also be used as murder weapons.

In the end, Guns are not the problem, the problem is people and until you address the people issue there are going to be problems. As has been stated over and over and over...criminals almost never use guns that they got legally and making them MORE illegal isn't likely to change things....all it will do is (at least in the USA) is make the millions of law abiding people who one and use guns responsiblity angry that their second ammendment rights have been usurped. Freedom of speech was #1 and is highly regaurded by vocal anti-gun advocates they argue its importance all the time, but when it come to the second ammendment..well it is pooh poohed as outdated. The constitutional rights we have here in the US are ALL important not just some.

Umm And I have to say, the act of neutering animals seems cruel to me and is usually only necessary because HUMANS arent responsible about their pets....people are the problem here....we should neuter the people [img]smile.gif[/img] Just kidding there...but man it does sound...painful.

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Sazerac: [QBTo put it bluntly (and forgive my choice of epithet), crusted-over dogshit won't stink until someone takes a stick and stirs it up again. QUIT STIRRING. -Sazerac

Umm not to be disrespectful or anything...I just really need to know..is this first hand info you are dispensing here

Umm haha? heh? Well I thought the epithet was rather humorous...[/QB][/QUOTE]Well...hehe...first "stick" information, at least! I wouldn't use my HAND to stir it up! [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

Glad you appreciated that,
-Saz

[AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe]

Guns being illegal would solve absolutely nothing. First of all if only the law enforcement and the military had guns they would be free to impose their will on anyone without guns, or the general public. That might be fine for right now, but lets say a really powerful leader gets in office and takres control and then uses the army and police to enforce their will on the citizens, kind of like the first series of star wars movies. You might think that it could never happen, but it happens all over the world in many different countries, at many idfferent points in history. Secondly on a different note. If criminals have guns now, one would assume they would be able to get guns if they are illegal. By having guns outlawed you only leave the average citizen defenseless. OK they could call the police, but what are they going to do with a gun carrying criminal in their house for the next ten minutes until the police get there? What we need is gun awareness. Teach kids about guns and theach them to respect them. If we as a society were more open about guns then we would greatly be able to reduce the number of gun related accidental fatalities. As far as the murder rate. If a gun is illegal and you want to kill someone what makes you think you wouldnt use a knife, or a sword, or an anvil or your fist. Granted a gun makes it easier to kill people, but violenece is going to exist whether or not guns are legal. Just my $0.02 [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Sazerac: quote: Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Epona and Donut MOVE away from there!

EVERYONE who was involved in the altercation needs to drop it...including YOU, Sir Taliesin. Everything has settled down nicely, and we don't need it getting started up again by singling people out.

To put it bluntly (and forgive my choice of epithet), crusted-over dogshit won't stink until someone takes a stick and stirs it up again. QUIT STIRRING.

-Sazerac[/QUOTE]Excuse me Saz, but please go back to my post and read the line that directly precedes what you have quoted. I believe that I to joined your chorus to tone down the heated debate.

As for what I was talking about in the quote you took from my post, I refer to Donut's statement on page 5.

"What I will agree with you on is that you are more likely to be a victim of crime in England than in the USA but I haven't heard anyone disputing this. If you live where I live in London it is even more dangerous. If you live in Central London (like Epona) you are virtually a crime statistic waiting to happen."

If I offended Donut or Epona I'm sorry. I should have added Donut's statement to the Bold Letters in my original post. I was not angry with them or anyone else here.

[Neb]

Originally posted by AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe: Guns being illegal would solve absolutely nothing. First of all if only the law enforcement and the military had guns they would be free to impose their will on anyone without guns, or the general public. That might be fine for right now, but lets say a really powerful leader gets in office and takres control and then uses the army and police to enforce their will on the citizens, kind of like the first series of star wars movies. You might think that it could never happen, but it happens all over the world in many different countries, at many idfferent points in history.

And of course ordinary people with guns will easily gun down the very well trained armed forces and retake the country for God, Liberty and mom's apple pie [img]tongue.gif[/img]

They might provide a bit of resistance, but not enough. And if the soldiers were being shot back at that'd probably just make them want to be even MORE harsh to the populace as revenge.

A guerilla war might be possible, but chances are that they'd somehow end up like so many other "freedom fighters" and take innocent people hostage and generally not really be freedom fighters at all but rather something approaching terrorists.

Originally posted by AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe: Secondly on a different note. If criminals have guns now, one would assume they would be able to get guns if they are illegal. By having guns outlawed you only leave the average citizen defenseless. OK they could call the police, but what are they going to do with a gun carrying criminal in their house for the next ten minutes until the police get there? What we need is gun awareness. Teach kids about guns and theach them to respect them. If we as a society were more open about guns then we would greatly be able to reduce the number of gun related accidental fatalities. As far as the murder rate. If a gun is illegal and you want to kill someone what makes you think you wouldnt use a knife, or a sword, or an anvil or your fist. Granted a gun makes it easier to kill people, but violenece is going to exist whether or not guns are legal. Just my $0.02 [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, if you don't have a gun the criminal might just knock you out, tie you up and steal your stuff. If you DO have a gun he'll shoot you, bury you in a shallow grave and THEN steal your stuff. Which is preferrable?

Besides that there's the fact that not everyone has the necessary connections for getting guns illegally, not everyone who wanted them would be able to get them anyway. On top of that kids will never be 100% responsible no matter how much we teach them, there will always be someone who collapses to group pressure due to a dare, "C'mon, take your dad's gun to school tomorrow, I DARE you to do it." Or gets drunk, or depressed, or stoned, or whatever.

Yes, you COULD kill someone with a knife even if you didn't have a gun. But if someone is running after you with a knife you can attempt to run from him, a madman with a gun would shoot you in the back when you ran.

Hey, noone ever said that outlawing guns would make violence magically dissappear, I am just personally of the opinion that it would lessen it quite a bit.

[AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe]

Making guns illegal would only serve to make the public a lot less secure in their own homes, knowing any crfiminal with a gun could walk in and do whatever they want to you because you are basically defensless. that is not the way to live. As for the first part of my discussion about the dictator thing. Why do you think our founding fathers thought the right to bear arms important enough to put in the bill of rights? The felt it not just important, but a RIGHT for a person to be able to protect themself, and I agreee with them. Taking guns away wouldnt stop crime, because they would still be available to the criminal element, look how good the police are at stopping people from getting drugs (not very good) One can only assume that guns would be the same way. All getting rid of guns would do is make the general public defenseless against those that do have guns, something no one deserves.