Religion in Schools

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Luvian: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: quote: Originally posted by Luvian:Everything related to politics or religions should be banned from schools and governmental buildings.

I agree, ban all politics in Government buildings! Maybe they would actually get some work done then [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Ok... that was some bad wording... [/QUOTE]I know, but it was too good to pass up [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Rokenn: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: quote: Originally posted by Luvian:Everything related to politics or religions should be banned from schools and governmental buildings.

I agree, ban all politics in Government buildings! Maybe they would actually get some work done then [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Ok... that was some bad wording... [/QUOTE]I know, but it was too good to pass up [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Actually, it was PERFECTLY worded.

I agree with MagiK, let the KKK do as they please. I strongly support their right to be idiots. Besides, the KKK isn't likely to start holding secret Klan meetings in your school for 3 reasons:

1. angry parents
2. they're "secret" meetings, see?
3. angry parents

It ain't like the world portrayed in Porky's where you're likely to run across a Klan meeting if you break into a HS Gym late at night.

[IronDragon]

Originally posted by Magik

The US and its constitution and its judicial system were all created under the principles of Christianity. All of the founding fathers believed in Christianity and were convinced of the necessity of having those core values incorporated into our country. They swore oaths, pledged them selves truthful under god and acknowledged the existance of god on their currency and in their official documents.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)


And further....

According to the U.S. Dept. of Treasury, the motto 'In God We Trust' came about not at the time of the Constitutional Conventions, but due to increased pressures to recognize God on coins and money during the Civil War. In April 22, 1864, Congress passed an Amendment authorizing the motto to be placed on the two-cent coin. It appeared on various coins throughout the years, and appeared on paper money in 1957. The phrase was eventually printed on all paper bills, superseding the motto "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) adopted by the Union in 1782.

[ 05-28-2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: IronDragon ]

Originally posted by Luvian: Everything related to politics or religions should be banned from schools and governmental buildings. What does "autocratic" mean?

Well you could substitute dictatorial for autocratic I suppose..but here is Websters def.


Main Entry: au·to·crat·ic
Pronunciation: "o-t&-'kra-tik
Variant(s): also au·to·crat·i·cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Date: 1823
1 : of, relating to, or being an autocracy : ABSOLUTE (an autocratic government)
2 : characteristic of or resembling an autocrat : DESPOTIC (an autocratic ruler)


and as for banning Polotics from school...sorry can't children need to be taught the history and reason of things...polotics plays a very real and vital part in peoples lives.

Originally posted by IronDragon: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.) You need to look a bit deeper at the principles are that are behind our judicial system, saying it ain't so doesn't mean it ain't so. I think the paragraph cited should be looked at in its whole context...and not just cut out of the events centered around the treaty. "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).) Original wording...Actual wording: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and petition the Government for a redress of grievance. Sooooo some of the original wording didn't make it into law. The ammendment cleaery limits Congress in it's powers. This does not however say anything about wether religions other than christianity were considered. Nor does it say we have freedom FROM religion [img]smile.gif[/img] *********SNIP Really good counter points to the arguments on religions place in the US. ********************* According to the U.S. Dept. of Treasury, the motto 'In God We Trust' came about not at the time of the Constitutional Conventions, but due to increased pressures to recognize God on coins and money during the Civil War. In April 22, 1864, Congress passed an Amendment authorizing the motto to be placed on the two-cent coin. It appeared on various coins throughout the years, and appeared on paper money in 1957. The phrase was eventually printed on all paper bills, superseding the motto "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) adopted by the Union in 1782.

all in all a nice collection of works, but hardly the "last word" on the subject...can you tell me when and where the custom of swearing of oaths on the christian bible came into play? Im thinking it was in the wors when Washington was sworn into office..but I can't find a reference.

Your post provides room for debate [img]smile.gif[/img] and indicates that even the founders were not all of one mind [img]smile.gif[/img] Sort of like th slavery issue and many other issues they passed over to be ironed out later in ammendments 1 - 27 But I do not bleieve anything you posted contradicted my assertions that our judicial system of laws and regulations are all based on biblical precepts.

[ 05-28-2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: But I do not bleieve anything you posted contradicted my assertions that our judicial system of laws and regulations are all based on biblical precepts.

Isn't the US judicial system of laws and regulations based on that of the Romans?

[Chewbacca]

I must discredit the notion that America was founded upon "Biblical" principles as the foundation for our goverment and laws. Sure the Christian fundamentalist have tried long and hard to make this so, but it is not the case.

If this were the case we would be purpetually caught between thou shall not kill and turn the other cheek, Though the fact we have become some what socialized does allow the meek to inherit the earth...

We would have no laws regarding the protection of religious freedom due to the fact that a lot of christianity has been intolerant to other religions up until modern times. If America were truly founded upon the majority christian virtues of the time, then christianity would be the only religion allowed.

Yes the founders of America were predominately Christian as far as I know, but obviously they had the wisdom and character to leave religion, including there own, out of the goverment as much as possible and yet provided gaurantee that any religion could prosper here.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: Everything related to politics or religions should be banned from schools and governmental buildings. What does "autocratic" mean?

Well you could substitute dictatorial for autocratic I suppose..but here is Websters def.


Main Entry: au·to·crat·ic
Pronunciation: "o-t&-'kra-tik
Variant(s): also au·to·crat·i·cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Date: 1823
1 : of, relating to, or being an autocracy : ABSOLUTE (an autocratic government)
2 : characteristic of or resembling an autocrat : DESPOTIC (an autocratic ruler)


and as for banning Polotics from school...sorry can't children need to be taught the history and reason of things...polotics plays a very real and vital part in peoples lives. [/QUOTE]Don't play dumb with me, you know very well there is a difference between teaching history class or even political class, and promoting a political point of view, like socialism, nazism, capitalism, democratic, KKK, or anythign else.

Theaching the negative and positive point of all party and talking about their origins and part in history is one thing, this is academic, but having a nazy sponsored football event is certainly not academic.

I used nazy as an example, but even a democrat sponsored event would be as bad for childrens, they are too young to really understand politics. In my opinion, teaching them politics or religion is simply brainwashing.

[Lovisa]

I really don't know anything about religion, cause we aint that religios here in Sweden [img]tongue.gif[/img] We would like never pray in school so I don't really know how I'm going to write about religion. Anyway, I think it's a bad idea cause thare is so much different religios specially in America. So I wouldn't go for the religios, is it wrong to say crap? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[IronDragon]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo

Isn't the US judicial system of laws and regulations based on that of the Romans?

you are basically correct. American law is based on old English law which in turn was based on Roman law which was based on Ancient Greek law. The notion that the legal code of the United States is based on Christian ideals is a myth in actuality is is based on Pagan principles.

Originally posted by MagiK

You need to look a bit deeper at the principles are that are behind our judicial system, saying it ain't so doesn't mean it ain't so. I think the paragraph cited should be looked at in its whole context...and not just cut out of the events centered around the treaty.

all of which implies that my original post was somehow misleading without actually saying that.
If anyone really wants to take the time and energy to read the entire treaty it can be found at:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...y/bar1796t.htm

Originally posted by MagiK

can you tell me when and where the custom of swearing of oaths on the christian bible came into play? Im thinking it was in the wors when Washington was sworn into office..but I can't find a reference.

The myth that George Washington swore the oath of office with hand on a bible was started in the inaugural address of Jimmy Carter. What information I could find indicates that President Washington held one of the text of the Masons while he took the oath. Incidentally President Washington also did not end his oath with “so help me God.” This is a recent addition to the oath.


Originally posted by MagiK

This does not however say anything about wether religions other than christianity were considered.

The notion that all religions were intended to be treated as equal comes from two places, first the constitution itself in both the establishment clause and the litmus test clause.
The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. (Article VI, Section 3, The Constitution of the United States.)
I am sure MagiK will argue that this was only made for Christian denominations and unfortunately Magik is probably right and Only Christians were the only peoples considered protected under the constitution.

Fortunately over the last 200 years or so the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that all religions are protected equally.

Unfortunately the United states has a rather poor history of protecting the rights of minority religions and history is rife with examples of forced conversion of children to Christianity.