Question on Christianity. - Page 2

Yorick · 01-22-2002, 01:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:
WHY is Satan considered evil?

Because he is a deciever - the father of lies - interested only in the downfall and misery of humankind. He cannot create, only pervert. So pervert and deceive he does.

He has the rank smell of Golodon the Unmanned. Bastard.

(I've always wanted to say that....)

Yorick · 01-22-2002, 01:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:

who says he punishes people in hell? i know the christians do,

Do they? None that I know says that. Nothing in my Bible says that either. Are you sure? Reeeeeaaallly?

Glorfindel · 01-22-2002, 01:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

He has the rank smell of Golodon the Unmanned. Bastard.

(I've always wanted to say that....)

U related to Dradeel by ne chance??? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Epona · 01-22-2002, 06:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

- the father of lies -

I thought Herodotus was the father of lies? Perhaps they jobshare. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] (sorry, sorry, I'm leaving the thread now....

)

Larry_OHF · 01-22-2002, 08:32 AM

Thank you for your comments, Yorick. they represent many of my aspects of the subject as well, though I was staying silent for the moment to allow other opinions to come into play without me persuading any additional conversation.

WOLFGIR · 01-22-2002, 09:04 AM

Oh now this is as funny as the other religious topics hehe!

Hmm, Satan.

Is he evil? Well the Gnosticist don´t think so. They think he is "God" and the current god is the evil one since mankind do so many evil things.

Reevelations are full of alot of things that seems not so "Biblical".. It seems that they missed the doomsday chapter IMHO.

The story of Satan and his devils (the names Beelsebub, Zapan, Asmodeus and friends were first known to Christianity from french monk that wrote about angels devils, sephyrs and other divine creatures. He was the one that listed all the angels and archangels and such)is also a mixture of cultural and religious beliefs, many parts taken from a good named Shaitan. Thus it is hard to determin the effect of Satan. The priests of the states church of Sweden explained it once like this to me.
"Hell is the abscence of God for all eterinty" "The devil is no more, there is no Inferno or Dante inspired hell anymore. The force of evil is the struggle to reach God".

Well thats more or less it.
For all the names here within mentioned, you can clearly see all the "stories" and "facts" about him being spread. The father of lies is also one of his archdevils names and epitome.. If you believe Lucifer is satan and thus being the Devil and not being alone in his actions..

OKI.. 2 cents worth at least I hope! [img]smile.gif[/img] And to last

answer the question if he is evil or not. Id the boogieman evil? Sorry for the sarcasm and bad attempted joke. But for me as a nonebeliever they are the same. A thing to put fear and obeying into people. I take no part in saying that this is right or so, everybody has the right to believe as they wish, therefor I take a "mythological" approach to the debate and history of satan.

*\Conan/* · 01-22-2002, 10:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:
Okay on resent ponderings I come up with something I can't answer, WHY is Satan considered evil? Now please stay with me here, I know that he was cased out of heaven due to a fight/agurement with God about how to raise Humanity or some such but once exiled he was sent to hell, a domain to call his own were he punishes those that break the scare law of God. Now surely by puinshing these people he is doing God's work, as these are people God will not forgive and therefore he is still acting servent of God?
So even while he is doing the will of God is he considered Evil and thought to turn Humans to a path of evil which gains him nothing but more work?

Gabriel, I sense a good heart in you. Lets call him Lucifer ok... My responses will be related to Biblical writings of which there is always room for deeper thoughts.. [img]smile.gif[/img] A long time ago in a far away place there was this guy. A good looking, talented, musical genius, leader and brilliant. Golden boy as you would perceive one. Although he was created he wanted to be Equal to his maker. Made his stand drawing nearly a third of "the inhabitants" on his side. A confrontation with his maker ended in he and his followers being cast out of town to a much lower place. A place where others of his creators handiwork were introduced. Scourched by his lost endeaver he was changed forever.. along with his followers. A being very far advanced compared to the lesser ones he roamed with. But the seperation from his makers imediate presence perverted him and his staff. Still being able to communicate with his maker with occasional talks, he trys to divide and seperate, confuse and accuse, then pervert good things as they are existing now. Seems like this is his only mission. Destain for his maker he sets out like a lion..preying on those who he would ..and those who themselves who want complete seperation from their higher power also. His future has been sealed and he knows it. Why not carry his battle against his maker by trying to destroy what he loves...his creations. I say this now to you all. You are tempted of your own desires..he just knows what they are. He sees you, watches, and lurks around. I know I myself am my worst enemy...not him. He is an outcast knarled up and angry...jealous and just plain mean. I will not follow one such as him. His powers can be bound temporarly with invocations so...why worry about him...I have my own problems with my relationship concerning my higher power

(It always needs work on my part.)
I could ramble on you guys but.. you read my veiw. Its only me. Even thow I do perceive This guy Lucifer as a higher power...he promotes everything I dont want in a friend. Ok Gabriel [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: *\Conan/* ]

Yorick · 01-22-2002, 10:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Epona:

I thought Herodotus was the father of lies? Perhaps they jobshare. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] (sorry, sorry, I'm leaving the thread now.... )

You mean Herodotus is the Devil!!!

I had quite forgotten that he had been accorded that title. Poor Herodotus. LOL [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Yorick · 01-22-2002, 10:40 AM

Conan, Larry, John and Wolfgir I enjoyed your posts guys. Thanks.
You too Azrael.

Bokken · 01-22-2002, 10:57 AM

Okay here is how it is from the Greek Orthodox religion.

Satan used to be an Archangel who had the name Aeosforos (this is how it is pronounced in Greek). Being an Archangel he had millions of angels under his command to do God's Bidding. Apparently back in that time all angels and Archangels had a free will which allowed them to do what they wished.
Aeosforos, seeing the huge numbers of his army and the power he held, thought, why should only God rule over everything. He decided that he shall also become a god in his own right and of course he would have his army of angels with him.
God, seeing the plans of Aeosforos to rebel against him, threw him out of the heavens along with all who decided to follow him and cast him in eternal damnation. Aeosforos' angelic form then began to change into a hideous form and the same happened to his followers. Thus the fallen angels (or devils if you will) were born. The angels in heaven then lost their free will and were only able to think pure and serve God and therefore were not able to ever go against him in any way.
The devils, knowing that there would never be any salvation for them from hell decided to steal from God the most holy of things possible for themselves. This being the Holy Spirit which is given to Christians upon Christianing. The holy spirit is regarded as a part of God and by pulling the Christians away from God, those spirits, instead of going back to God, would also be damned in hell forever. Of course the devil has no use for them but it is just another part of God that will serve in eternal damnation along with him.

So, if you like to see it the this way, the devil is not doing Gods work but plainly pushing people away from God so they can no longer return to him. After all God wishes all souls to return to him and him alone.
Okay so why doesn't he stop this then you may ask? Because he has also given us a free will. When he made the first man and woman, God fobid them to sin. They of course did and he cast them down to Earth. Of course they made the same mistake Aeosforos did and there was no salvation for them either so when they died they went to limbo (if I may call it that since I have no English interpretation for it)
It was only since Jesus came to Earth just over 2000 years ago that he declared people shall be saved and be sent to heaven if they worshipped him. Thus we have a second chance where the devil has none. We are allowed eternal life for a mere lifetime of worshipping or eternal hell for disregarding him. So, since we can be saved and our souls shall return to God, the devil tries to stop this as much as he can. After all if he cannot be saved, none of us shall either if he can help it.

This is how it is written for us Greek Orthodox. I know many of you might say it is probably rubbish and spending a whole lifetime of woshipping is crap because we shall all go to heaven anyway but if what I have said is wrong then the only thing wasted is one lifetime and eternal life will await on the other side. But if what I have said is right, then imagine how much can be lost just for waisting a short lifetime neglecting God.

To all of you who have read this, I thank you for listening [img]smile.gif[/img]

01-22-2002, 01:24 AM	#11
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Gabriel: WHY is Satan considered evil? Because he is a deciever - the father of lies - interested only in the downfall and misery of humankind. He cannot create, only pervert. So pervert and deceive he does. He has the rank smell of Golodon the Unmanned. Bastard. (I've always wanted to say that....) __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-22-2002, 01:26 AM	#12
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by andrewas: who says he punishes people in hell? i know the christians do, Do they? None that I know says that. Nothing in my Bible says that either. Are you sure? Reeeeeaaallly? __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-22-2002, 01:30 AM	#13
Glorfindel Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Mt. Gambier, Australia Age: 36 Posts: 3,337	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: He has the rank smell of Golodon the Unmanned. Bastard. (I've always wanted to say that....) U related to Dradeel by ne chance??? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

01-22-2002, 06:05 AM	#14
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: - the father of lies - I thought Herodotus was the father of lies? Perhaps they jobshare. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] (sorry, sorry, I'm leaving the thread now.... ) __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

01-22-2002, 08:32 AM	#15
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	Thank you for your comments, Yorick. they represent many of my aspects of the subject as well, though I was staying silent for the moment to allow other opinions to come into play without me persuading any additional conversation. __________________

01-22-2002, 09:04 AM	#16
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 3,450	Oh now this is as funny as the other religious topics hehe! Hmm, Satan. Is he evil? Well the Gnosticist don´t think so. They think he is "God" and the current god is the evil one since mankind do so many evil things. Reevelations are full of alot of things that seems not so "Biblical".. It seems that they missed the doomsday chapter IMHO. The story of Satan and his devils (the names Beelsebub, Zapan, Asmodeus and friends were first known to Christianity from french monk that wrote about angels devils, sephyrs and other divine creatures. He was the one that listed all the angels and archangels and such)is also a mixture of cultural and religious beliefs, many parts taken from a good named Shaitan. Thus it is hard to determin the effect of Satan. The priests of the states church of Sweden explained it once like this to me. "Hell is the abscence of God for all eterinty" "The devil is no more, there is no Inferno or Dante inspired hell anymore. The force of evil is the struggle to reach God". Well thats more or less it. For all the names here within mentioned, you can clearly see all the "stories" and "facts" about him being spread. The father of lies is also one of his archdevils names and epitome.. If you believe Lucifer is satan and thus being the Devil and not being alone in his actions.. OKI.. 2 cents worth at least I hope! [img]smile.gif[/img] And to last answer the question if he is evil or not. Id the boogieman evil? Sorry for the sarcasm and bad attempted joke. But for me as a nonebeliever they are the same. A thing to put fear and obeying into people. I take no part in saying that this is right or so, everybody has the right to believe as they wish, therefor I take a "mythological" approach to the debate and history of satan. __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

01-22-2002, 10:04 AM	#17
\Conan/ Red Dragon Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Virginia, USA Age: 62 Posts: 1,512	quote: Originally posted by Gabriel: Okay on resent ponderings I come up with something I can't answer, WHY is Satan considered evil? Now please stay with me here, I know that he was cased out of heaven due to a fight/agurement with God about how to raise Humanity or some such but once exiled he was sent to hell, a domain to call his own were he punishes those that break the scare law of God. Now surely by puinshing these people he is doing God's work, as these are people God will not forgive and therefore he is still acting servent of God? So even while he is doing the will of God is he considered Evil and thought to turn Humans to a path of evil which gains him nothing but more work? Gabriel, I sense a good heart in you. Lets call him Lucifer ok... My responses will be related to Biblical writings of which there is always room for deeper thoughts.. [img]smile.gif[/img] A long time ago in a far away place there was this guy. A good looking, talented, musical genius, leader and brilliant. Golden boy as you would perceive one. Although he was created he wanted to be Equal to his maker. Made his stand drawing nearly a third of "the inhabitants" on his side. A confrontation with his maker ended in he and his followers being cast out of town to a much lower place. A place where others of his creators handiwork were introduced. Scourched by his lost endeaver he was changed forever.. along with his followers. A being very far advanced compared to the lesser ones he roamed with. But the seperation from his makers imediate presence perverted him and his staff. Still being able to communicate with his maker with occasional talks, he trys to divide and seperate, confuse and accuse, then pervert good things as they are existing now. Seems like this is his only mission. Destain for his maker he sets out like a lion..preying on those who he would ..and those who themselves who want complete seperation from their higher power also. His future has been sealed and he knows it. Why not carry his battle against his maker by trying to destroy what he loves...his creations. I say this now to you all. You are tempted of your own desires..he just knows what they are. He sees you, watches, and lurks around. I know I myself am my worst enemy...not him. He is an outcast knarled up and angry...jealous and just plain mean. I will not follow one such as him. His powers can be bound temporarly with invocations so...why worry about him...I have my own problems with my relationship concerning my higher power (It always needs work on my part.) I could ramble on you guys but.. you read my veiw. Its only me. Even thow I do perceive This guy Lucifer as a higher power...he promotes everything I dont want in a friend. Ok Gabriel [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: \Conan/ ] __________________ \\Conan/
$\Conan/ is offline$

01-22-2002, 10:36 AM	#18
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Epona: I thought Herodotus was the father of lies? Perhaps they jobshare. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] (sorry, sorry, I'm leaving the thread now.... ) You mean Herodotus is the Devil!!! I had quite forgotten that he had been accorded that title. Poor Herodotus. LOL [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-22-2002, 10:40 AM	#19
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	Conan, Larry, John and Wolfgir I enjoyed your posts guys. Thanks. You too Azrael. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-22-2002, 10:57 AM	#20
Bokken Baaz Draconian Join Date: August 28, 2001 Location: Australia Age: 46 Posts: 708	Okay here is how it is from the Greek Orthodox religion. Satan used to be an Archangel who had the name Aeosforos (this is how it is pronounced in Greek). Being an Archangel he had millions of angels under his command to do God's Bidding. Apparently back in that time all angels and Archangels had a free will which allowed them to do what they wished. Aeosforos, seeing the huge numbers of his army and the power he held, thought, why should only God rule over everything. He decided that he shall also become a god in his own right and of course he would have his army of angels with him. God, seeing the plans of Aeosforos to rebel against him, threw him out of the heavens along with all who decided to follow him and cast him in eternal damnation. Aeosforos' angelic form then began to change into a hideous form and the same happened to his followers. Thus the fallen angels (or devils if you will) were born. The angels in heaven then lost their free will and were only able to think pure and serve God and therefore were not able to ever go against him in any way. The devils, knowing that there would never be any salvation for them from hell decided to steal from God the most holy of things possible for themselves. This being the Holy Spirit which is given to Christians upon Christianing. The holy spirit is regarded as a part of God and by pulling the Christians away from God, those spirits, instead of going back to God, would also be damned in hell forever. Of course the devil has no use for them but it is just another part of God that will serve in eternal damnation along with him. So, if you like to see it the this way, the devil is not doing Gods work but plainly pushing people away from God so they can no longer return to him. After all God wishes all souls to return to him and him alone. Okay so why doesn't he stop this then you may ask? Because he has also given us a free will. When he made the first man and woman, God fobid them to sin. They of course did and he cast them down to Earth. Of course they made the same mistake Aeosforos did and there was no salvation for them either so when they died they went to limbo (if I may call it that since I have no English interpretation for it) It was only since Jesus came to Earth just over 2000 years ago that he declared people shall be saved and be sent to heaven if they worshipped him. Thus we have a second chance where the devil has none. We are allowed eternal life for a mere lifetime of worshipping or eternal hell for disregarding him. So, since we can be saved and our souls shall return to God, the devil tries to stop this as much as he can. After all if he cannot be saved, none of us shall either if he can help it. This is how it is written for us Greek Orthodox. I know many of you might say it is probably rubbish and spending a whole lifetime of woshipping is crap because we shall all go to heaven anyway but if what I have said is wrong then the only thing wasted is one lifetime and eternal life will await on the other side. But if what I have said is right, then imagine how much can be lost just for waisting a short lifetime neglecting God. To all of you who have read this, I thank you for listening [img]smile.gif[/img]

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