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Old 01-20-2004, 07:47 PM   #21
Dalamar Stormcrow
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If you can read this post, you are not the president

Read the books:

Farenheit 451 and 1984

George Orwell and Ray Bradbury predicted our future but the dates are all wrong. The U.S. will be turned into a world where no one is sad because all greivances are censored. Black people don't like Uncle Tom's Cabin or Huckleberry Finn? Ban it. Whites don't like The Poisonwood Bible? Ban it. The world will become a waxed expressionless face and the government will be playing Big Brother with the country and the world. The U.S. government is tripping over itself and will eventually fall into the black pit all around it.

Life's a bitch huh?

[ 01-20-2004, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Dalamar Stormcrow ]
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Old 01-20-2004, 07:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by john:
Lets' not forget what hes' done to the clean air act.Paybacks to all his rich business friends that have weakened our enviromental laws leading to more polution.
Perhaps you could be a bit more specific? Now, if you were to say exactly what it is he's done to the Clean Air Act that you don't like, perhaps I might agree with you... But as it stands, I'm not sure just what you're talking about. Just saying that he's made weakened it doesn't give enough information to rally support.

Also...

Quote:
Originally posted by john:
Please vote anyone but Bush!!
So... You're saying that it's better to vote for someone who you know absolutely nothing about than for Bush? Sorry, but I don't see the country in ruins at the moment. I also don't see indication that it's about to do so. Now, of course, I might be wrong... However, even if you don't approve of a number of Bush's policies, voting for a random candidate doesn't mean they'll be better. There's at least as great a chance they'll be worse than better, I would hazard.

On a final note for the moment, I must say that I largely agree with what Hierophant said. Whether or not you approve of Bush, it seems like a distinctly poor choice to base an entire political philosophy on that. Do those of you who've already posted about your hatred of Bush have an actual, specific plan on what would be a better course of action than what Bush is doing? I don't mean something like, "We shouldn't have gone into Iraq," or "Help the environment," or whatnot. I mean something that concrete that could, with perhaps a little bit of tweaking, be turned into a legitimate law. Altrhough I've seen a lot of people criticize Bush (here and in other places), very few I've spoken to seem to have any real idea about what would be a better way of going about the business of government.


Editting this in now that I've seen the latest post.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dalamar Stormcrow:
If you can read this post, you are not the president
So... What point do further insults prove, I'm curious? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:
Originally posted by Dalamar Stormcrow:
George Orwell and Ray Bradbury predicted our future but the dates are all wrong.
And why, exactly, do you say that? Some evidence would be greatly appreciated, since I'm having a hard time remembering the last time I heard of a book (or most anything, for that matter) being censored.

[ 01-20-2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Encard ]
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:18 PM   #23
Dalamar Stormcrow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Encard:

quote:
Originally posted by Dalamar Stormcrow:
George Orwell and Ray Bradbury predicted our future but the dates are all wrong.
And why, exactly, do you say that? Some evidence would be greatly appreciated, since I'm having a hard time remembering the last time I heard of a book (or most anything, for that matter) being censored. [/QB][/QUOTE]Huck Finn was censored but saying why would probably get me a ban. Poisonwood Bible was banned for a while in some European country in the Slavic region. Uncle Tom's Cabin was banned up until the 60's. Some proff, if not enough please inform me why not. Plato was banned in Greece for the thought of a one all-powerful God and no demi-gods.

And why do you think Bush invaded Iraq? Oil. I see Korea as a much larger threat with nuclear LRMs, but there is a POSSIBILITY of WMD's even existing there. I'm suprised Bush hasn't framed Saddam yet. Korea could blow everyone in the U.S. to smithereens but Iraq has nothing.

And a $1 trillion dollar deficit. There was a deficit before, but it seems Bush has SEVERLY added to that deficit. And yes it is better to vote randomly but also keeping in mind of not voting Bush. Sure it may still hurt us, but I would choose a lesser evil than the greater evil.

And a qoute from Dubya himself:

There is a saying in Tennessee, it's probably in Texas, but i know it's in Tennessee. Fool me once, shame on.........you. Fool me.....twice.......cant.....get fooled again.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:53 PM   #24
Blind_Prophet
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I can't see the video it dosen't come up when I try and watch it all I get is a song??? So I don't know what i'm missing....

Btw should I provide more evidence about the video not coming up [img]tongue.gif[/img] jk

[ 01-20-2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Blind_Prophet ]
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:57 PM   #25
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If you vote randomly, there's no guarantee whatsoever you're picking the lesser evil. You could as easily end up voting for someone worse than for someone better. Bush is far from the worst candidate out there, at least in my opinion.

Next... Can you perhaps come up with some proof that Bush's main reason for invading Iraq was oil, hmm? Because I've yet to see anyone, anywhere, give any. The most I've seen is accusations of the type you've made, supported at most by conjecture and guesses. At the moment you haven't given a real reason to believe that, only a theory.

North Korea... Perhaps the reason we didn't go in with military force is that they do already have nuclear arms? Iraq (at least allegedly... for the moment let's avoid the debate of whether it was accurate or not) was supposed to, from what I remember hearing, have been able to acquire the capability to build nuclear weapons within approximately 6 months. So, a preemptive strike would have removed the threat of that. Attacking North Korea could result in them using weapons they already have, which would be problematic.

Also... Framed Saddam? For what? He's done enough that it'd be hard to frame him for much of anything. Or do you mean that Bush would lie about Saddam having nuclear weapons? I'm rather curious, how would you know, if Bush were to proclaim that inspectors had found WMDs in Iraq today, whether it was fact or fiction? Would you simply assume it was a lie? Because I don't see much of a way for you to find out conclusively whether or not Saddam had been "framed," as you put it, and I don't see a good reason to simply discount what the president says.

And, lastly... Your examples of censorship don't seem to be very recent. Two of them you've said were censored for a time, but that changed in the recent past, which shows improvement if anything. Also, wondering, how recently was the Poisonwood Bible banned in Slavic countries? because if you mean during the time of the USSR, well... That's gone now as well, so again, if anything, we're showing improvement. Plato being censored in ancient Greece is too far in the past to serve as a valid example for modern society; it's like using Roman slavery to try and prove that slavery exists here today. And, lastly, if you can't tell me when and how Huck Finn was censored, I don't see how I can very well take that as a good example. If you really don't feel that you can post it here, I'd appreciate it if you could please at least PM me a bit of information on that.

[ 01-20-2004, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Encard ]
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Old 01-20-2004, 10:09 PM   #26
Blind_Prophet
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Just for fun i found a website about books being banned or censored. http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
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Old 01-20-2004, 10:31 PM   #27
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Hmm... Interesting website, Blind Prophet. I find it interesting that so many things mentioned there were banned for indecency/obcenity or similar accusations, and more recently unbanned. Although at the moment I've skimmed the site rather than reading it fully, so of course I could be wrong, it seems that a majority of what's mentioned there was banned a fair while ago, and unbanned since then. Loosening standards or coming closer to necessary freedom? Interesting debate, although it's not touched on much at the page you linked.

Interestingly, the things I remember not being unbanned at the moment seem to largely be those related to the creation of weaponry or drugs, or that seem to have a main purpose of furthering other illegal acts. Although of course you could make a case for that being legitimate material, I can't honestly say that it's a pervasive attempt Big Brother Government to brainwash humanity. It seems a good bit more like attempt by the government to protect the health and safety of its citizens. I can't say for certain if the government's going about things the right way, but it's certainly not some sort of bloated book-burning monster intent on doing us harm.

I also remember seeing a comment about some people alleging that the Bible is banned in American schools... Personally, at least, I've seen nothing to support this. Furthermore, that doesn't seem to go with what I remember seeing in some Supreme Court opinions I've had a chance to look through... For example:

Quote:
Lynch v. Donnelly
In Stone, for example, we invalidated a state statute requiring the posting of a copy of the Ten Commandments on public classroom walls. But the Court carefully pointed out that the Commandments were posted purely as a religious admonition, not "integrated into the school curriculum, where the Bible may constitutionally be used in an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like."
I remember seeing a number of other things to this affect... So, my guess is that although people may challenge the schools' use of the Bible (or other religious texts) in class, as long as it's not being put to use to promote religion it should survive in court.

Anyways, interesting site. Thanks again for linking to it.

[ 01-20-2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Encard ]
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:31 PM   #28
Blind_Prophet
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No problem encard.
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:34 AM   #29
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First, over a month ago Bush quietly pulled all WMD detection teams out of Iraq. The result? Mission Failure. Not that they had a chance to succeed to begin with: There were no weapons to find. There is no evidence that there Ever were weapons to find. Basically, America was 'Misled' into war.

Now you say you want a policy instead of complaints about a figure head. Well, shouldn't we actully oust the crooks before we talk about next quarters goals? Shouldn't we actually pull the rattler off our leg before discussing the various treatments for snake venom?
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Old 01-21-2004, 05:11 PM   #30
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Like the metaphors you're using, I don't think your argument is sound. Whether or not you agree with Bush's policy, government is not somewhere that you can think now and act later. Why? Two main reasons, as pertaining to the topic at hand.

First, you're not simply removing Bush if you vote him out of office, you're replacing him. Although whether Bush is good or bad is always open to debate, same as with any president, he's certainly not the worst person to hold the office. Replacing Bush does no good whatsoever without solid guarantee that he's being replaced by someone better. Without a comprehensive plan of action for that person to follow, then no such guarantee exists.

Furthermore, a worthwile plan of action takes a fair while to work out. Once a candidate's elected is far too late to work out a good plan; yes, you can still do it, but there'd presumably be a good-sized period of government stagnation until that occurred. Or, of course, a plan might be formulated hastily and fail because it wasn't carefully thought out. Dislike of one candidate does not mean that another is better; voting purely on that basis is very dangerous gambling.

On a last note for the moment... I'm going to have to check up on the WMD information soon. I believe I remember hearing in the State of the Union speach that a number of WMD programs had been located, possibly along with some WMDs... I'm not sure on the specifics of that, however, so as I said, I'll take a look around shortly.
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