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Old 10-08-2001, 03:34 PM   #11
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
The idea for this thread arose from Donut's question regarding what would Jesus do in the HOW DO YOU LIKE US NOW thread.

Anybody care to try to rationalize how America can claim to be a predominantly Christian country at the same time it worships capitalism? How do you reconcile the apparent glaring contradiction between Jesus' positions regarding worldly wealth with the attitude of capitalism of amassing as much worldly wealth as possible?

I am interested in seeing if anybody CAN reconcile those two things. For my own part, I don't think they can be. It's just another example of how many people who claim to be Christians today really don't follow Jesus' teachings at all. Hell, in this case, they follow the OPPOSITE of what he taught.

Thoughts, comments, flames?
Be in the world not of the world. That is, work the system, but do not bow down to it. I'm fairly left wing and recognise the evils of capitalism, but realise one person bucking out of existance does nothing to either effect change, nor benefit others. I have posted my ideas on collective responsibility in threads in the past so this is nothing new.

Regarding a "Christian nation" the concept is quite contradictory. A nation of Christians is attainable however. America is based on, though divergant from, Christian values of human rights, equality, respect and justice. America may not be a Christian nation, but it is a nation of many Christians. It's a far more spiritually aware nation than the very secular nation of Australia for example. That's not to say Australian spirituality is lesser than Americas, but that it is easier to be a Christian or Jew here than there, from my experience.

I think sometimes a "Christian nation" can actualy disguise the difference that Christ makes in humanity, blurring the lines between having him and not. Spending time in predominantly Buddhist or Hindu nations/provinces radically changed my perception of the Christian Church in general, and gave me a grace for imperfections within Churches I previously did not have.

I do believe that capitalism is a world religion though, and I have mentioned this before. The stock market is he bible, futures speculators are the prophets, consultants and market analysts are the priests, advertising geniuses are the evangelists, the bottom line is the god, and growth and profit are the measure of sucess.

The aim is to exist within the context of a nation, yet not be bound by values which conflict with christian values of not worshiping money, giving to the poor and oppressed, placing others needs and Gods will before ones own, and measuring sucess in terms of inner peace, harmony, contentment, wisdom, love and joy, rather than an accumulation of material wealth.

There have been many times in the past as a secular musician where I have had to place my values, integrity, and my perception of Gods will above attaining hordes of cash or the chance to attain stellar sucess. If either come my way, they will be on my own terms, and I will not be beholdant to a slavish desire for either.



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Old 10-08-2001, 03:39 PM   #12
tracey
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Join Date: June 18, 2001
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hmmmm, a tricky problem. i think, as an atheist, that capitalism is pretty bad as it's practiced - profit and the exploitation of others'. as a person brought up as a christian, i found that too many christians felt that as long as they could turn a blind eye to the world's poverty by throwing a few quid at it every now and again, their concience was salved.

i often would look at the houses and cars owned by christians of my acquaintance and thought, hmmmm, i don't see you making any effort to cast off the trammels of materialistic possesions. christ taught trust in one's creator to care for them as he cared for the birds. most people these days, trust money above all else as a solid guarantee of comfort.

on the other hand, each of us has to live and provide for ourselves and others' in a purely practical way which calls for the earning and spending of money. a roof, clothing, food. however, to take the basics and be content is surely enough for anyone. it's the grasping and chasing of money that is obnoxious, particulalry for christians as their bible does dictate certain basics.

so, all rich christians are hypocrites and shouold give away to deserving causes the excess that they posess and treat other human beings as equally deserving of the basics.

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Old 10-08-2001, 06:15 PM   #13
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


Regarding a "Christian nation" the concept is quite contradictory. A nation of Christians is attainable however. America is based on, though divergant from, Christian values of human rights, equality, respect and justice. America may not be a Christian nation, but it is a nation of many Christians. It's a far more spiritually aware nation than the very secular nation of Australia for example. That's not to say Australian spirituality is lesser than Americas, but that it is easier to be a Christian or Jew here than there, from my experience.


If you're talking about the teachings of christ as separate from the rest of the bible, then I'll give you the above. However, the bible as a whole does not strike me as being particularly human rights oriented, and as for equality, HA, don't make me laugh!!!!

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Old 10-08-2001, 08:36 PM   #14
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
If you're talking about the teachings of christ as separate from the rest of the bible, then I'll give you the above. However, the bible as a whole does not strike me as being particularly human rights oriented, and as for equality, HA, don't make me laugh!!!!

Well you're laughing at something I believe Silver.
The commandments to care for the widows and orphans, the edict to leave the surplus wheat ungathered for the poor to take (instead of dumping it in the ocean as now), the commandments involving morality, the stories that give moral guidance. Judaism is based on the old testament. Many Pentecostals delve into the old testament with fervour for human rights, morals and the like.



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Old 10-08-2001, 08:46 PM   #15
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
The idea for this thread arose from Donut's question regarding what would Jesus do in the HOW DO YOU LIKE US NOW thread.

Anybody care to try to rationalize how America can claim to be a predominantly Christian country at the same time it worships capitalism? How do you reconcile the apparent glaring contradiction between Jesus' positions regarding worldly wealth with the attitude of capitalism of amassing as much worldly wealth as possible?

I am interested in seeing if anybody CAN reconcile those two things. For my own part, I don't think they can be. It's just another example of how many people who claim to be Christians today really don't follow Jesus' teachings at all. Hell, in this case, they follow the OPPOSITE of what he taught.

Thoughts, comments, flames?
Please explain the contradiction between Christainity and capitalism. Wealth is not a sin nor is the acumalation of wealth.



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Old 10-08-2001, 08:59 PM   #16
G'kar
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Hmmmmm...I cant explain all that paradox because it's as full of paradox as any given person is.
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"
I think this applies to doing to others what they have already done to you as well. In the "us -vs- them" competitive mentality you want to do unto others first what you dont want others to do unto you. It is a conflict of ideas, a paradox. The world is full of hypocrisy, and as individuals, we can root out and face our own.
 
Old 10-08-2001, 09:06 PM   #17
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:
Hmmmmm...I cant explain all that paradox because it's as full of paradox as any given person is.
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"
I think this applies to doing to others what they have already done to you as well. In the "us -vs- them" competitive mentality you want to do unto others first what you dont want others to do unto you. It is a conflict of ideas, a paradox. The world is full of hypocrisy, and as individuals, we can root out and face our own.

If that were so it would say "Do unto others as they do unto you" Which is not what it says at all.

Putting yourself in the other persons shoes is the aim of the teaching. Doing what you would want them to do to you. It's more than a superficial
"I'd like them to buy me a guitar, so I'll buy them a guitar" as they may hate the guitar. A truer aplication would be finding what is important to them and providing that.

If we were a beggar would we want someone to give us a quarter? Of course. An easy one. Just because no-one has given you money (as per "do as done") is no reason not to give money to the beggar.


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Old 10-08-2001, 09:12 PM   #18
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:
Hmmmmm...I cant explain all that paradox because it's as full of paradox as any given person is.
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"
I think this applies to doing to others what they have already done to you as well. In the "us -vs- them" competitive mentality you want to do unto others first what you dont want others to do unto you. It is a conflict of ideas, a paradox. The world is full of hypocrisy, and as individuals, we can root out and face our own.
G'kar I can't follow the logic it says:"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" NOT :"Do unto others what they have already done to you".
I may not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier but, don't specific words have specific meanings? Or are we just going to change the meanings of words on our own.... a kind of language anarchy?



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Old 10-08-2001, 09:58 PM   #19
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
G'kar I can't follow the logic it says:"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" NOT :"Do unto others what they have already done to you".
I may not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier but, don't specific words have specific meanings? Or are we just going to change the meanings of words on our own.... a kind of language anarchy?

I was refering to same concept, only in a different tense. Do unto to others...
regardless of their future intentions or past actions toward you.
How do you want to be treated, as a person... or as a nation? Behave in away toward others as you WOULD have other behave toward you. Thats what it says.

Still no real expalination here. Either one lives by a creed like that, or one doesnt. I'm not judging anyone, just pointing out that phrase in the spirit of the original topic. Its one I believe in. Its the Bible's Karma concept to me.





[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 10-08-2001).]
 
Old 10-08-2001, 10:40 PM   #20
Sazerac
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Monroe, LA
Age: 60
Posts: 7,387
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

If that were so it would say "Do unto others as they do unto you" Which is not what it says at all.

Putting yourself in the other persons shoes is the aim of the teaching. Doing what you would want them to do to you. It's more than a superficial
"I'd like them to buy me a guitar, so I'll buy them a guitar" as they may hate the guitar. A truer aplication would be finding what is important to them and providing that.

If we were a beggar would we want someone to give us a quarter? Of course. An easy one. Just because no-one has given you money (as per "do as done") is no reason not to give money to the beggar.


Interesting point, Yorick. It brings up the question of the Platinum Rule, which is "Do unto others as they would have done unto them." Meaning exactly what you have said: give others what they wish for, not for what you wish upon them. Similar principle, but raised to a higher level of kenning.

Cheers,



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