People overreacting on Twin Tower?

Originally posted by Kaz: Now, straight off, I am a young, idealistic, radical, pacifist teenager. So what? Sometimes the world needs idealists. Maybe there are some people that are born evil - Hitler I won't argue. But many of the others become evil by outside influence - bad childhood, etc. I do not see what you can do with these people. Unfortunately I am not too well informed about the events of the last 50 years, so I can't really help there. But IMHO, not all terrorists are evil. Some are brainwashed, indoctrinated,... they don't belong in jail, they belong in a psychiatry. And also, how do you define a terrorist? It occured to me that many of the freedom fighters during the Revolutionary War may seem like terrorists from another point of view, among others. I agree with everything Silver Cheetah said, btw. We are human, we aren't perfect. So nothing we create is perfect - no government is perfect, they have their strong and their weak points. You have to face that to make the government better, a "everything is just perfect the way it is" attitude won't get us anywhere. Also, you have to face your history. Pretending that our country is the best, all the things we did in the past were just for the good of the many (I went to American schools, this is the impression I got from the history lessons) and never for our own pocket, that we never screwed up, is wrong. You HAVE to face the mistakes you made in your history in order not to repeat them. Personally, I think Germany does a good job of this, almost too good, and that our history lessons are rather neutral - but of course all opinions on these matters are subjective. I'm not exactly sure what point I was trying to make with this, I just felt it needed to be said.

Loud cheers and huzzahs from this section! You are right on target with your thoughts here.
"A nation ignorant of its history is doomed to repeat it."
That applies not just to simply not knowing, but also to those who would fail to learn from what they do know.
Keep posting Kaz, your insights are valuable.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Kaz: Now, straight off, I am a young, idealistic, radical, pacifist teenager. So what? Sometimes the world needs idealists. Maybe there are some people that are born evil - Hitler I won't argue. But many of the others becomeevil by outside influence - bad childhood, etc. I do not see what you can do with these people. Unfortunately I am not too well informed about the events of the last 50 years, so I can't really help there. But IMHO, not all terrorists are evil. Some are brainwashed, indoctrinated,... they don't belong in jail, they belong in a psychiatry. And also, how do you define a terrorist? It occured to me that many of the freedom fighters during the Revolutionary War may seem like terrorists from another point of view, among others. I agree with everything Silver Cheetah said, btw. We are human, we aren't perfect. So nothing we create is perfect - no government is perfect, they have their strong and their weak points. You have to face that to make the government better, a "everything is just perfect the way it is" attitude won't get us anywhere. Also, you have to face your history. Pretending that our country is the best, all the things we did in the past were just for the good of the many (I went to American schools, this is the impression I got from the history lessons) and never for our own pocket, that we never screwed up, is wrong. You HAVE to face the mistakes you made in your history in order not to repeat them. Personally, I think Germany does a good job of this, almost too good, and that our history lessons are rather neutral - but of course all opinions on these matters are subjective. I'm not exactly sure what point I was trying to make with this, I just felt it needed to be said. [/B]

Well what you can try to do stop people from being evil...is give them love. Educate with a desire for truth. And always have love in your heart.

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by MagiK: Hmmm Ill have to ponder what you said about idealism and realism, not sure I agree but I can at least think about it I can to a (very) limited extent sympathize with what you had to live through in the 40's I would say, that what sicks with me the most out of the "horrors" Ive been exposed to isn't the visual, I think I learned to be detached from the sights...what still sticks with me and visits me in my dreams some times are the smells. Kind of odd that. As for Islam and Chritianity...while admittedly fairly ignorant of Islamic law what I do know of both would seem to me that there would be an easy "live and let live" if people actullay follow the core tennants.... Well I have to go get some sleep, been on the go too many hours today. Good night fair lady.

Smells are much more evocative than sights, I agree. That is one of the reasons being there 'in the flesh' has so much more impact, I think.

As for religious practice as opposed to religious tenet - all too true, sadly.

Sleep well, MagiK

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[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by MagiK: I understand that you are young, I don't expect you to really have a good grasp of the geopolitical pressures that formed the middle east into what it is today.

MagiK, before I reply to this, let's just get a couple of points out of the way. I am not particularly young, neither am I simplistic.

You have banged on about your life experience. Right, you've been in the military. I think we all got that. Now can you just shut up about it please? My own life has been both horrific and incredible, I don't propose to burden you or anyone with the details because there is a. far too much of it and b. a lot of it doesn't bear repeating. Suffice it to say I have a great deal of life experience, and I don't take kindly to being patronised by you. Don't make assumptions about other people based on no evidence WHATSOEVER, please.

Before we go any further, could you just clarify what you mean by the rather muddled statement below. Until I understand just what you are referring to, I cannot come up with any kind of meaningful reply.

'I have a very very good grasp of history, especialy recent history say since 1931 or so. I know from first hand some of that history and while it is true we helpped create some of those terrorist states, you are over simplifying the whole issue by ignoring the reason those states were supported.'

The reason being? Please explain.

Leaving that for the moment, I'd like to make a point or to on your "why people are evil" thing.

Re your 'evil people' points. Again, can we stop with the patronising, there there little girl, you stay in your protected cocoon' language please! I have NOT lived a protected life, not by anybody's standards. I have seen what people can do to each other, and I have seen the results of what they have done. WHY DO YOU THINK I TAKE THE STANCE I DO!!! I am not here on this forum arguing my case because I think it would be 'nice' or 'lovely' to have a better world.

I am here because I have seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, andfelt with my own body the violence people do to each other. I have both felt and empathised with the pain that is caused when we move through life in hatred and fear, and not in love. I want a different world because I've had a bellyfull of certain aspects of this one! And yet,I have never lost my faith in people, and in our capacity for transcendence and transformation. Probably because I have seen so much transformation take place, not least in my own life.

But onto this 'evil people' point. (I apologise to Fljotsdale in advance, as in the process of answering this I am going to make some revelations about her life that people are probably not aware of. I don't think she will mind. In case you don't know, she is my mother.)

MagiK, a person's environment (especially their early environment) plays a very large part in what that person will become in later life. There are many factors, of course. Biology is key - not enough of certain chemicals in the brain can seriously affect you. Your genes will determine certain things about you and so on.... But environment is key.

For example, children that are exposed to violence and see violence when young, will very often become either violent towards others or towards themselves (i.e. self destructive) when they get a little older. When they do not, they may become ill because of the amount of material they have repressed, the amount of emotion they have been forced to direct inward.

My own father was extremely violent, - he put my mother in hospital several times when I was a child, not to mention inflicting continuous lesser physical and mental abuse on her every day of her life.

We children watched this, and were also targets, as we became old enough. I left home at 16 because the situation was unbearable. As a result of my early experiences, my late teens and twenties were a classic case of what happens to a child who has no self esteem, no confidence, and who is angry as hell at the world. I don't propose to go into it, suffice it to say that I suffered, and so did the people around me.

Eventually, I began a journey into and through my pain and the world that I had created for myself whilst living it. Slowly, I began to understand it and deal with it, and gradually became the person I am today. My mother has taken the same journey. Both of us have been lucky. Not everyone is so lucky, not everyone gets the support and help that have been available to both of us at crucial times.

Many damaged people take out their anger at what has happened to them on the world, i.e on other people, and on property. (Those who react in this way are very often male - girls have more of a tendency to turn their anger inwards and damage themselves rather than others.) Children may be damaged to a greater or lesser extent, - to what extent will also depend on genetic factors - and also how sensitive the child is, how well he or she has learned to deal with the situations encountered in her world, and how much help and understanding from other quarters the child receives in his/her life. The ones who are most damaged are the ones you'll tend to read about in the papers. (Many of them are sexually abused, which is the type of abuse most difficult to recover from.)

In some parts of the world, where conditions may be more appalling than we can even imagine (for all kinds of different reasons), many young men are brutalised from an early age, and end up in the army. Their early 'training' is thus reinforced. They become, well, what they become is something you've had experience of. But is it any wonder all they know is how to hurt and kill? We learn to do best what we know best - if you've spent all your life being knocked about and hurt, you generally pretty soon learn how to do it to other people, and to defend yourself. Not that surprising really, that these people aren't the types you'd want to invite to a dinner party.

What I am trying to say to you, MagiK, is that (apart from the rare ocasions when the brain is damaged in some way - and no, that is not going to apply to each and every terrorist that exists on this earth) most people who torture and kill their fellow human beings for 'fun' are not born evil. They are made, almost every single one of them. If you are brutalised through your early life, or told that you are not worth anything, told that repeatedly, if you see your mother and sisters being treated like animals, knocked around every day of your life, you come to accept such behavior as normal, and you yourself are likely to grow up beating, maybe raping women, maybe torturing. It becomes normal.

These are extreme examples, but they hold in other situations also. Children aren't born thinking they're worthless. Someone has to tell them so. Those are the children, very often, that go out and do something crazy, just to prove that they are SOMEBODY! And so on and so forth.

I could go on about this all night and all day. In my life, I have spent a lot of time with people who have undergone great suffering. I have spoken to them at length. I know a little about the human heart, and what drives us to do the things we do. We are not fundamentally evil, none of us. We are damaged, many beyond repair, it seems. Damaged by societies that do not really value the human being, just as he/she is, for who he or she is, societies that pretend they know the meaning of love, but in fact have not learned it yet, with a few notable exceptions.

You seem to think Hitler, Stalin et al came out of a vaccuum, evil to the core, right from the word go. For god's sake! There would have been all kind of factors involved. And no, it doesn't mean I think that they should all be given a pat on the head and told to get on with it. I don't think that about terrorists either!! However much people are victims of their upbringing and society, society has to be allowed to function. However, Kaz's point about therapy is a good one. By all means put these people where they can't do any harm! It's common sense. Kill them if you must. (Although personally, I wouldn't.)But I think a little understanding about how these people are created, and what makes them tick can teach us many valuable lessons about what it is and is not acceptable to do to each other. Love and respect for all human life. Two key factors in having a successfull global society, on a successful planet.

Last and very much least, - your last point, which was:

'Finally in closing. I know where the arms in the east came from, but the west selling them guns didn't start the barbarism there, it existed before there was a civilised west. The flower of civilisation started in the middle east or so Im told, and they never advanced. Instead it degenerated into the savageness that we see today. Israel occupying this or that bank of a river has nothing to do with wether it is ok to suicide bomb a bunch of civilians. Why did Israel move to the west bank?? hmmm can you say Attacks from Syria and Egypt?? maybe they didn't feel safe letting their neighbors get too close...maybe we shouldnt just oversimplify. (none of this is ment to hurt feeling or point the blame, it is all just to provoke some thought, the younger you are the easier it is to be idealistic and simplistic)'.

MagiK, how such a collection of 'non facts' as this is meant to provoke thought, I really do not know. I am not going to dignify the above with a reply.

(How DARE you call me simplistic when you present this crap as something to provoke my thought!)

I realise that you did not write the above delibrately to provoke. But in the future, I really would suggest that you think before you write. I am most offended by the assumptions that you have made about me, on the basis of no facts whatsoever.

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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-18-2001).]

[Moridin]

Silver Cheetah

Very impressive as always

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Fljotsdale]

Hi, Silver feline!
I feel quite sorry for MagiK! He didn't realise he had caught a tiger by the tail! (or Cheetah in this case!) Nor that his post would raise the whirlwind, lol!

He's quite nice, really, you know.

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[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Hi, Silver feline! I feel quite sorry for MagiK! He didn't realise he had caught a tiger by the tail! (or Cheetah in this case!) Nor that his post would raise the whirlwind, lol! He's quite nice, really, you know.

Ah, well. That wasn't the whirlwind, twas but a haddock. (Eh Absynthe...)Tis the traditional weapon of the Cheetah, a wet haddock. Did ye not know that, Fljots? (dale).



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[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: Silver Cheetah Very impressive as always

Thanks Moridin! You're a doll!



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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Ah, well. That wasn't the whirlwind, twas but a haddock. (Eh Absynthe...)Tis the traditional weapon of the Cheetah, a wet haddock. Did ye not know that, Fljots? (dale).

Haddock, is it? Ok!

You should be in bed, my girl! Have you no work to do tomorrow? And how did the evening go?

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[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by MagiK: I would agree with you if said airmen didn't do everything in their power to avoid causing unnesecary casulaties, I would agree if I didn't know of pilots who gave their own life to save a few innocent civilians, I would agree IF you had any idea what you were talking about. Your post wasnt a serious commentary it was strictly set out as bait. Nice try.

Actually I am quite serious.

If you are more comfortable talking about more distant events and airmen we can use World War II as an excellent example.

There, our airmen killed civilians by the hundreds of thousands, knowing that their bombs were doing so. I don't see that much of a difference in the attitude required to destroy cities with incendiary bombs and that required to blow up a world trade center.