Population vs Mismanagement continued...

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Me too! My 40yr old daugher made a conscious choice not to have children many, many years ago, and has never seen reason to regret that choice. She is, however, adult! Nonetheless, the childless do NOT really appreciate, imo, the responsibilities, pleasures and burdens of parenthood - it is a part of their potential they have not experienced or developed. It does not make them less adult, but it does make them less able to participate in/empathise with the concerns of parents. And I feel this is true whether a person has CHOSEN not to have children, or whether a person is UNABLE to have children. Forgive me if I am wrong in this assumption. I hope Sir Taliesin only meant that - but even if not, I suspect his comments were more thoughless and lighthearted than serious in intent.

SORRY!!! Poor choice of words!!! Actually what I meant was what Flot said. Moridin your choice of words struck me wrong with the "...Minivans and children...". It was as if those of us that choose to have children are some how evil. It's a sentiment that I have caught here on other topics, though not from one as old and wise as you. I believe that everyone has the right not to have children. But, please respect those of us that do.

Melusine, I hadn't thought how my comment might hurt those that can't have children. For that I am truely sorry It was very callous!!!

Mel, your comment has also got me thinking about something else. I was watching TV the other night friday night. There was a program on about "average people" being heroes and how everyone had a story. It was on CBS. The reporter and a camera man/producer go somewhere in America, anywhere actually (they use the tried and true method of throwing a dart at a map). When they get there, they open the phone book and at random start calling people to interview (they have gone through has many has forty people until they find someone that will agree to an interview). they they spend several days with them until they find a story. In Michigan they found a couple in their thirties that couldn't have children. Soon after they got married, she developd some problems and had to have a hesterectomy (sp), so no children. They ended up become foster parents to two little boys. These two children were born to drug addicted parents, who apparently didn't take care of them. When the aurthoities got them off the streets at the ages of 4 and 6, they could barely talk and weren't clothed properily. the four year old wasn't even potty trained. This couple took them in about 4 or 5 years ago and where able to adopt them. They currently have another foster child, a baby, that they are trying to adopt as well. The point of this long story, that I have laboriously typed out, is that there are always ways to have children. There are also a lot of children out there to adopt!

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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: SORRY!!! Poor choice of words!!! Actually what I meant was what Flot said. Moridin your choice of words struck me wrong with the "...Minivans and children...". It was as if those of us that choose to have children are some how evil. It's a sentiment that I have caught here on other topics, though not from one as old and wise as you. I believe that everyone has the right not to have children. But, please respect those of us that do.

Sorry Sir T...it was my words that I think confused...it was not meant as an evil, but rather to say that in the suburbs (at least here) you are more likely to find families, rather than singles...nothing agaisnt that, but if you are not married with children, then it is not appealing.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Ya know..I was just gonna let this thread die, but I just have to say this....I is NOT the western societies that are breeding at ridiculously accelerated rates. The birth rates in the USA are somewhat moderate to low. When I was a child in grade school, the population of the US (circa 1970) was estimated at 240 million, Now even with all the immigration some 30 years later our estimated population is still less than 300 million, couple that with the fact that we are living longer than ever that would indicate our "western" civilization is not scarfing up all the useable land. In the USA there is far more land not being used for any particular purpose than the other way around. Even our largest cities population density is lower than the large cities in the Asian parts of the globe. I would also like to point out that China a reletivly low tech country per capita seems to be able to feed most of its people and is still gaining population at quite a rate....Looks to me like maybe the Westerners have the better ideas in this arena...just my 2 cents.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Me too! My 40yr old daugher made a conscious choice not to have children many, many years ago, and has never seen reason to regret that choice. She is, however, adult! Nonetheless, the childless do NOT really appreciate, imo, the responsibilities, pleasures and burdens of parenthood - it is a part of their potential they have not experienced or developed. It does not make them less adult, but it does make them less able to participate in/empathise with the concerns of parents. And I feel this is true whether a person has CHOSEN not to have children, or whether a person is UNABLE to have children. Forgive me if I am wrong in this assumption. I hope Sir Taliesin only meant that - but even if not, I suspect his comments were more thoughless and lighthearted than serious in intent.

May I add that I am 32 and have opted not to have children, myself. I helped raise my cousin, was a preschool teacher for a while and have been an "auntie" to my best friends three kids. I just don't have that "ticking clock" syndrome most women seem to have. I don't feel you have to have children to prove anything and, since we don't have royalty here, I feel no need to "continue the lineage". I'm proud of my heritage, but don't see why some people (especially women) feel the need to have children to "be complete" or to be "adult". I have been adult in my attitudes since I was 6 years old. Being of genius IQ put exceptional burdens on me when I was young and much more was expected of me than of other children. I am just now getting a chance to "act like a child" (and believe me, I'm MORE than making up for it).

But I will say, don't assume that all childless people do not or cannot appreciate the "responsibilities, pleasures and burdens of parenthood". Some of us can. The responsibilities and burdens are some of what made me decide not to have children and, watching my friends with their children, I know full well the pleasures I'm missing. That pleasure is somewhat supplanted by the pets I have as I care for them as I would a child. And the experience I had growing up and helping raise my cousin as well as teaching 3 year olds and helping my friend with hers has given me a bit of a chance to know what it's like.

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"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

DragonMage I know several people who see their pets as their "children"
It is somewhat of a curiosity thing for me as I wonder just how much difference there is in how they and/or you feel about the pet as opposed to how people with "human" children feel. I suppose it is one of those unanswerable questions, as it is with beauty most of those quantifiables are in they eye of the beholder. Still animals will always be more limited in just how much they can relate to their "parents" and just how much can be exchanged.

I had many pets (mostly Labradors) when I was growing up in the country, but never crossed that barrier of being able to see them as anything more than animals and pets and my love for them never even held a glimmer to what I felt for my children...errr feel...feel for my children...just because the oldest has gotten into that pre-teen thing does NOT mean I do not love him....repeat to self many times!!!!!!

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-10-2001).]

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by MagiK: DragonMage I know several people who see their pets as their "children" It is somewhat of a curiosity thing for me as I wonder just how much difference there is in how they and/or you feel about the pet as opposed to how people with "human" children feel. I suppose it is one of those unanswerable questions, as it is with beauty most of those quantifiables are in they eye of the beholder. Still animals will always be more limited in just how much they can relate to their "parents" and just how much can be exchanged. I had many pets (mostly Labradors) when I was growing up in the country, but never crossed that barrier of being able to see them as anything more than animals and pets and my love for them never even held a glimmer to what I felt for my children...errr feel...feel for my children...just because the oldest has gotten into that pre-teen thing does NOT mean I do not love him....repeat to self many times!!!!!!

You DO have a point here on how much pets can reciprocate and I know that what I feel for my pets (even the one that hurt the most to lose) would never compare to what I would feel for my own child. I understand your point in that, once they are weaned in about 6 weeks or so, they don't really DEPEND on me anymore. Not for sustenance, anyway. But I (underline I) still get very attached (probably because I DON'T have any children of my own). And the ones I have certainly ACT like children most of the time (from sibling rivalry fights to jealousy).

Personally, I'm just a glutton for punishment.

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"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)