*sigh* I'm not used to this...

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: Just ask yourself "is the woman in question worth all this" ? If the answer is yes, then to hell with your friends' feelings. The first one had his chance and blew it, and the second one is already circling around her like a hungry shark. When there's money and/or women involved, a lot of "good friends" suddenly aren't so friendly anymore.

You're right Johnny. But I'm the one that has been less than friendly, 'Michelle' too. Her lies reflect my lies, and good friends have been caught in between. She is still a good person, but just not the person many of us thought she was. The same goes for me, although I'm perhaps not all that good. A fair bit has been said and done between all of us since I started this thread. I can see things alot more clearly now. I've been a fool, and now I'm going to have to face the music.

[ 11-02-2003, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Vaskez]

You're never going to be able to please everyone at once - that's something we have to live with. Therefore I'd say try and go for what makes you happy, while doing as much good to others as you can, or hurting them as little as possible if that's unavoidable. I know this sounds a bit selfish, but one thing I've experienced many times on my self is that if I'm not really happy then I need to try very hard to be nice to others, or not have any ill feeling towards them and that will always surface at some point. You need to be happy within yourself so you can let the positive vibes radiant unto others. So in this case I agree with Johnny. In the future, if the woman makes you happy, go for it. Some people say lovers come and go while true friends remain, but that depends on what you're like. If you take your relationships seriously you might find the love of your life or something and that's more important (IMO) than any friendship. Your soul-mate is the closest person to you and that's the most important thing, with good friends coming a close second. Now you wouldn't wanna miss out on a woman that's your soul-mate would you?

[ 11-02-2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Vaskez: You're never going to be able to please everyone at once - that's something we have to live with. Therefore I'd say try and go for what makes you happy, while doing as much good to others as you can, or hurting them as little as possible if that's unavoidable. I know this sounds a bit selfish, but one thing I've experienced many times on my self is that if I'm not really happy then I need to try very hard to be nice to others, or not have any ill feeling towards them and that will always surface at some point. You need to be happy within yourself so you can let the positive vibes radiant unto others. So in this case I agree with Johnny. In the future, if the woman makes you happy, go for it. Some people say lovers come and go while true friends remain, but that depends on what you're like. If you take your relationships seriously you might find the love of your life or something and that's more important (IMO) than any friendship. Your soul-mate is the closest person to you and that's the most important thing, with good friends coming a close second. Now you wouldn't wanna miss out on a woman that's your soul-mate would you?

I see your point Vask, only I don't believe in souls I don't think anyone is ever right for each other, it all boils down to the effort, sacrifice and degree to which you are willing to share yourself with another person. I do fully agree with what you say about being comfortable within yourself. It's how that comfort is attained that's the tricky part.
I never wanted Michelle, I wanted the person that I imagined her to be. When I realised that she wasn't this delsuional fantasy of mine, and when she realised I wasn't the delsuional fantasy of hers, our feelings dissolved pretty rapidly. Now John can't trust either of us with his confidence, and all three of us have to live with that. Life teaches some hard lessons sometimes. Maybe in future I should listen to my conscience instead of recklessly self-indulging for self-indulgment's sake... maybe.\

edit: anyway, thanks for all the advice, help and kind words. I'm going to stop being a drama king (is that the male equivolent of drama queen?) and get on with this. Thanks again.

[ 11-02-2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Bozos of Bones]

OK, so with Michelle out of the picture you have a much simpler situation. Please don't call me a cold conniving bastard for what I'm about to say, I'm just being realistic.
SITUATION WITH JOHN: Talk to him, say you're sorry for not listening to him(he did warn you about Michelle's true nature, right?) but not that you're sorry for trying. Out of the situation I gathered that he is the friend you'd be best off keeping, so put a little extra effort. Talk to him about Michelle in detail, but do not turn her into a "bitch that's responsible for all this and should be put to death".
SITUATION WITH DANIEL: I gathered he is a bit childish, and I recommend coming down to his level with a small trick. Tell him you've broken up with Michelle, but don't say why. If you tell him her true nature he may react with disbelief and think you're messing with his head to kick him out of the picture. Make Michelle look free, but don't overdo it. He'll get with Michelle, realise she's not who he thinks she is and brake up. On the other hand, he may discover that her true nature fits his perfectly and they live happily ever after. Either way, he is in good terms with you again.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: I see your point Vask, only I don't believe in souls

You don't have to, by soul-mate I just mean someone who you really connect with so much that you could spend your whole life with them. There is probably more than 1 in the world, the trick is to find one of them.

[ 11-02-2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Aelia Jusa]

Looks like everything is reasonably sorted [img]smile.gif[/img] . I'll just say that I think, for next time, you need to sort out your priorities. It's admirable to put others' needs and wants above your own. But you'll find that most people won't do the same for you. You have to be responsible for your own happiness because no one else is going to take up the slack. When you said your first priority was Michelle's feelings, and the second was the feelings of your group of friends, and THEN you own feelings might get a look in, I think you weren't being kind to yourself. Of course you should think of other people, but what if the needs of your group of friends end up making you miserable? Most of them probably won't be thinking, what's best for Aaron here? If their needs are selfish ones, then you may need to be a little selfish too [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Boutte]

Forget about everybody else. Think about the two of you, whats it like when you are together and not thinking about all extraeneous b.s. Is it good? That's what matters. If you lose a friend because of which woman you're dating you have'nt lost much.

[Harkoliar]

well im glad it got sorted out.. not the way you liked it but at least its over with

also wellard

Lovers come and go True friendship is priceless, timeless and ultimately unbreakable The coming weeks will find out if you John and Daniel are going to be the best mates that will last a lifetime. You may soon discover fools gold or a motherlode.

lovers indeed come and go but if its true love you are looking for.. i would say that it would take both true friendship and love into one to make true love (soul mate perhaps). done take love forgranted.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by johnny: Just ask yourself "is the woman in question worth all this" ? If the answer is yes, then to hell with your friends' feelings. The first one had his chance and blew it, and the second one is already circling around her like a hungry shark. When there's money and/or women involved, a lot of "good friends" suddenly aren't so friendly anymore.

You're right Johnny. But I'm the one that has been less than friendly, 'Michelle' too. Her lies reflect my lies, and good friends have been caught in between. She is still a good person, but just not the person many of us thought she was. The same goes for me, although I'm perhaps not all that good. A fair bit has been said and done between all of us since I started this thread. I can see things alot more clearly now. I've been a fool, and now I'm going to have to face the music. [/QUOTE]I agree with everybody else that it's a good thing this got sorted out as quickly as it did with Michelle. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you might have wanted them too, but this turn of events should make it easier to patch things up with John and maybe Daniel too.

As for your own actions, let's not be too hard on ourselves here Heirophant. Yeah, John tired to warn you about this "hidden side" of Michelle, but he had also just broken up with her. How were you to know he wasn't just being bitter and making stuff up. Plus, I'm assuming she is rather attractive (since all 3 of you are interested in her) and no guy is going to blame another guy for taking a chance on a pretty woman.

You will have to "face the music" with John, but you've proven here on IW that you're a big enough man to admit when you are wrong. Sit down with John and just tell him that you're sorry for not listening to him in the first place and you are really sorry for the way you've been acting. True friends DO last and the friendship you guys have will overcome this.

As for Daniel, I have to agree with Bozo of the Bones, let him find out for himself what you and John have already learned about Michelle. There is NO WAY he is going to believe either one of you without some evidence to back it up. His "delusional fantasy" of her hasn't been shattered yet. And it isn't going to be until Michelle does the shattering. Then you and John can sit back and wait for Daniel to come back and offer you guys a serving of "humble pie" himself.

Hopefully, everything will eventually get back to the way it was with you and John and Daniel. Good mates are hard to find and are definitely worth holding onto when you do. If the three of you really are good mates, this will not affect your friendship in the long run.

Hang in there, Heirophant, and don't be so freakin' hard on yourself. The fact that you are so concerned with your friends feelings proves that you ARE a good bloke - so don't be thinking any different. John and Daniel are lucky to have a mate as good as you. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[The Hierophant]

Thanks to everyone for the free wisdom. Things were ok with John (my flatmate, hard to avoid ) today. A little chilly, but nothing bad. Havn't talked to Michelle, we agreed to just stay away. I also talked to Daniel over the phone to organise our fruit picking venture, nothing was mentioned about the 'incident' and conversation was at a nice, business-like level (which is how my friendship with Daniel has always been, he's a 'management' major, likes doing business) So all in all it looks like this ugly little episode is well on the way to being swept under the rug where it can crumble away nice and quietly, only to rear its horrifying head in 20 years time at our school reunion, or something like that [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again everybody. Your words really did help me alot.

[ 11-03-2003, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]