East vs West - more fuel to the fire

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Delightful bit of history there, SC. I didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the illumination [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-28-2001).]

Ah. That bit you quote is not my wording. Got it off the net to help Kaz out - thought it might make things a bit clearer. I did say 'got it off the net' - you musta missed that bit!



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: I think it's a bit of a shame that there's been such a knee jerk reation to this article. Rather than dismissing this opinion totally out of hand, is it not better to look at the situation honestly, and seperate the truth from the bias?

The fact remains, Yorick, that he DIDNT say difference, he said 'supremacy of our civilisation' and 'superiority of our society'. I think I'll go with my reactions to what he did say, rather than what he could have said if he'd chosen to.

I take your point re very different civilisations, however, Britain's history goes back a long way before christianity was imported into this country by the Romans. Judeo-christianity are amongst the roots of our civilisation, along with many other factors. Greek thought, for example, not to mention the old nature worship which is deeply ingrained here. That doesn't invalidate your point however, as the influences are still very different.

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: I take your point re very different civilisations, however, Britain's history goes back a long way before christianity was imported into this country by the Romans. Judeo-christianity are amongst the roots of our civilisation, along with many other factors. Greek thought, for example, not to mention the old nature worship which is deeply ingrained here. That doesn't invalidate your point however, as the influences are still very different.

Really? Pre-Christian Briton was a very different civilisation to the one it is now. Aside from the racial differences since the influx of invaders, we have a literate society instead of reliance on oral tradition, a judicial system that includes onus of proof on the accuser and judgement by peers. Currency as a means of trade, government by democratic representation (as opposed to heirachic tribalism) codified laws as opposed to wordlaw.
One merely has to venture to Ireland to see how different modern Britain is even from a modern Celtic society reshaped by Christian ideas.

Granted, we have many ideas from Hellenic thought - as we do from Arabian/Islamic mathematical and scientific advances. However, unlike say Athens, women are allowed to vote. Slaves - who could not vote - are no more. Unlike Sparta, men can own land. Unlike the pantheon, the dominant religious idea is Monothesm.

Hellas was also a littoral society - one that regarded rivers and waterways as links rather than boundaries: evident in the Hudson dividing New York and New Jersey, or the Channel dividing Britain and France. Hence the problem when Littoral Greece had Ionia taken by the Turks, who see the Agean as a boundary. They were always going to clash in as much as a nomads clash with agriculturists.

Ancient Hellas is very different from the West.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Really? Pre-Christian Briton was a very different civilisation to the one it is now. Aside from the racial differences since the influx of invaders, we have a literate society instead of reliance on oral tradition, a judicial system that includes onus of proof on the accuser and judgement by peers. Currency as a means of trade, government by democratic representation (as opposed to heirachic tribalism) codified laws as opposed to wordlaw. One merely has to venture to Ireland to see how different modern Britain is even from a modern Celtic society reshaped by Christian ideas. Granted, we have many ideas from Hellenic thought - as we do from Arabian/Islamic mathematical and scientific advances. However, unlike say Athens, women are allowed to vote. Slaves - who could not vote - are no more. Unlike Sparta, men can own land. Unlike the pantheon, the dominant religious idea is Monothesm. Hellas was also a littoral society - one that regarded rivers and waterways as links rather than boundaries: evident in the Hudson dividing New York and New Jersey, or the Channel dividing Britain and France. Hence the problem when Littoral Greece had Ionia taken by the Turks, who see the Agean as a boundary. They were always going to clash in as much as a nomads clash with agriculturists. Ancient Hellas is very different from the West.

Yorick, bit too tired to make any coherent points on this at present, but I totally see what your saying, and don't dispute it. But Britain is more than just judeo-christianity. Nature worship continued here even during the times of most fierce opposition by the church, when many thousands were killed by the church (witches, most particularly). The old beliefs still survived underground, as it were, and have resurfaced over the past century, probably as a result of the growing awareness that the man's dominion over the earth needs to be tempered with a sense of connection and responsibility. My point is simply that our roots are legion. And yes, J-C is a strong element. But not the only one


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Yorick, bit too tired to make any coherent points on this at present, but I totally see what your saying, and don't dispute it. But Britain is more than just judeo-christianity. Nature worship continued here even during the times of most fierce opposition by the church, when many thousands were killed by the church (witches, most particularly). The old beliefs still survived underground, as it were, and have resurfaced over the past century, probably as a result of the growing awareness that the man's dominion over the earth needs to be tempered with a sense of connection and responsibility. My point is simply that our roots are legion. And yes, J-C is a strong element. But not the only one

I never said "is" or "only", but "based on". Nature respect and care is also prevalent in Judeo-Christian thought and hardly the exclusive domain of the Druids/Pagans. The pre-Roman society was replaced, the negative elements along with the positive ones more's the pity. Respect and love of the creation is a postive thing, as is the mental prowess involved in memorising history. However the mortal fear that Druids, Witchdoctors and Shamans have held/still hold over people from tribal Africa to Ireland certainly was/is not positive. Neither was the combination of priest/ruler/judge.

It's interesting that many proclaim the wonderous nature of the Dalai Lama for example, yet fail to answer the question, why do the Chinese hate/fear/oppose him? (Despite the fact that the Chinese Empire created the position in the first place) Why would they oppose the concept of a "God King" that rules his subjects spiritually and physically?
How would we feel about King Falwell? Regardless of the benefits of the respective faith, the seperation of church and state is a wonderous thing.

Additionally Druidic ideas have had less influence than the aforementioned Islamic ideas on modern western civilisation, yet it is the child of this culture that the current clash involves. Western Civilisation is not merely the product of Celtic Britain. Holland, Spain, The Roman Empire, the Italian north, The German States, Greece and France have all contributed at various stages and in varying degrees, to the Western Civilisation that is being spoken of. There were no Celts in Slavic, Orthodox Russia for example.

Aside from being errant, limiting Western Civilisation to British civilisation ignores Berlusconis controversial argument - the very subject we are supposedly discussing.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-28-2001).]

Originally posted by Yorick: It's interesting that many proclaim the wonderous nature of the Dalai Lama for example, yet fail to answer the question, why do the Chinese hate/fear/oppose him? (Despite the fact that the Chinese Empire created the position in the first place) Why would they oppose the concept of a "God King" that rules his subjects spiritually and physically?

Because the chinese goverment are facist like in repressing any idea that would threaten the states total dominion over how its citizens think. And he got away.