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Old 01-30-2002, 03:18 AM   #1
AzureWolf
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Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: .
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This is an offspring of the Prisoners thread where Magik was talking about how todays genders in society had blurred the lines too much between males and females.

This is the post from the thread by Magick

"And I will in fact take issue with the current state of masculinity in the "civilized west" ever since the 60's feminism has been spreading, and while I do believe in equal rights for women, I detest and abhor the universal attempt to emasculate men. It has become almost a sacrilidge to be a real man these days. You are not allowed to take a stand, or to make a judgement of right or wrong...the whole effort to be "more accepting" while good in theory is just plain BS (hope BS isnt a curse) when applied to many aspects of the real world. It has been this emasculation of the male that has caused us to be the "soft" targets for the hard and brutal peoples who would wage war agaist freedom loving peoples of the west. Sorry if this sound trite or over stated but darn it (ok you all know I ment damnit so why is it ok to say darn?) Men really need to start having some backbone and realize that femininity in a society is all well and good but it belongs to the women and not the men. Yes yes I know its not PC to point out that there is a real physical and mental difference between men and women, but ignoring it don't make it go away. Yes there are effeminate men and masculine women, I never ment what I was saying to be an absolute, so if you are a effeminate man or a masculine woman, more power to you, just be willing to admit the truth of the real world to you...there are evil people out there who want to kill you, torture you and eradicate you just because they do not like you, and being nice to them or "playing fair" with them won't earn you any bonus points."

I thought it was an interesting topic for discussion.

So sit back relax cool your flames and have at it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Opinions anyone? [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-30-2002, 06:26 AM   #2
Barry the Sprout
White Dragon
 

Join Date: October 19, 2001
Location: York, UK.
Age: 41
Posts: 1,815
I would just say that I repeatedly get mistaken for a woman, by people who don't know me. I have long hair and look effeminate anyway, maybe I am not in the best position to answer this question impartially. What I would say is in reference to the last few points made. I do not stand up for the rights of the Afghani's or the Al-Quadi members because I would hope that they do the same for me. I do it because I think it is the right thing to do in the circumstances. I do it because god put me on the earth for a purpose and in the absence of knowing what the hell it is I have to make one up. So my purpose is to try and help other people and stand up for what I beleive in. If that makes me an enemy of the free world because I am an effeminate pacifist whiner then so be it.
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Old 01-30-2002, 07:32 AM   #3
Harkoliar
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 21, 2001
Location: Philippines, but now Harbor City Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 5,556
i believe in equal rights for both men and women. women have been emphasizing thier rights which is well and good but sometimes for me, they sometimes go on banging us with their rights when they have already passed the equality line between men and women. i have respect for women in both thier roles in society.

things i dont like:
1. arrange (more like force) marriage where women dont have rights for thier husbands
2. women treated as property (grrrr..!!)
3. rules where women have no rights

so i do have respect for equality. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:14 AM   #4
Gabriel
Emerald Dragon
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: England
Age: 41
Posts: 920
Sorry but as far as I understand the post you seem to be saying that if a man acts more like a women he is a push over but that is why equality is needed because being feminine is not being weak.
Now as far as it being a real man it all would depend on your belief of what makes a real man. As for the choice to judge right or wrong it is degreed by law and not the choice of any single person.
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:29 AM   #5
fable
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Join Date: March 17, 2001
Location: Where I am.
Posts: 1,089
The physical differences between men and women are pretty obvious, and pretty neat, if you don't mind my saying so. But as to mental differences, I'm afraid I haven't noticed any. I hear pop science reports from time to time, in which some model of either gender gushes on about how it is now "scientifically proven" that men and women either 1) have different ways of looking at the universe; or 2) have identical ways of looking at the universe. These seem to be a wash; and what appear to be mental distinctions look (to me) like nothing more than cultural ones, caused by environmental training.

If this is not the case, I would like to know what are the effects of mental differences between women and men. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-30-2002, 08:46 AM   #6
Garnet FalconDance
Mephistopheles
 

Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: deep within the sylvan splendor....
Age: 60
Posts: 1,443
A few important statements to begin with:

I am female. Yep, never been mistaken for a male even in my dirtiest dungarees filthy from stringing fence or cutting firewood. That is I've never been mistaken if you see me(unless the men you know frequently wear dresses for no reason, have long hair, and a decidedly feminine figure!). Apparently Yorick thought I might be in possession of an alternative set of equipment.

I frequently exhibit what would apparently be considered masculine traits: I 'take a stand', 'make ...judgement of right and wrong', and 'have backbone'[sic] and I don't gasp lose it when I break one of my nails!. No apologies for these since I do not believe them to be solely masculine or feminine.

I am not a 'masculine' woman. The thought someone may think that sends me into paroxysms of helpless laughter!

Ok, here goes. Warning: this is the first post of the day, it's icy outside so everybody's home from work/school, and I feel verbiose. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Stereotypes, that is what we're really talking about here, and the railing against them. MagiK bemoans the fact that society has taken the attempted breaking of stereotypes too far. In a way, it has. Is this a good thing? In many ways,perhaps. Some few males are more willing to acknowledge and cope with some of the 'softer' emotions including sadness, lonliness, and communication in general. This is good. And women, in turn, are supposed to acknowledge the more masculine emotions of aggressiveness, anger, and resolve. From my pov..........

I am the oldest of four children, three girls and a boy. From the age 12, I worked alongside my father learning the carpentry trade on school holidays and summer break. As I have said, I am not a 'masculine' female, but my dad rarely made much concession for my (societally decreed and scientifically delineated) 'weakness'. Granted, I was not forced to carry an unreasonable amount of weight or anything, but I was expected to contribute fully and to the extent of my ability in whatever task was at hand. And I did. At school I indulged my love for dresses and heels and on the weekend and holidays, I dressed in jeans or overalls and workboots and set concrete forms or roofed or painted/nailed or set in water pipes. Daddy said that just because I was a girl didn't mean I had to be weak and I shouldn't have to *count* on a man to take care of everything (cause that was about so much b.s, he said, it's supposed to be a partnership. ::nods:: wise man).

So it was no great surpirise when I enlisted in the service. Now I wanted to go to Cryptographical school but the wait was a minimum of six months and for that time, I would be forced to take a desk job typing and fetching or some such 'feminine' job for some petty officer. Nope, not for this gal. I put in and got the next opening in a school available--welding (hull maintenance technician, that is, also including fire fighting) school. I was one of a dozen or so in a crowd of a hundred + men and the only one in my particular class. I worked hard, took no concessions to my gender, and earned the respect of my peers. You learn real fast that a fire aboard ship has no care what gender is fighting to put it out.

Aboard ship, I received bull from the other men--not because I didn't complete all my tasks, not because I was weaker, not because on ocassion I simply could not lift a steel sheet they could--but because I was in 'their' navy...I was a threat to what they perceived as an all-male tradition.

I have never backed down from a just fight. I have never used tears to get my way. My children are taught that it's ok for boys to cry in pain or sadness, and it's ok for girls to be asseertive and not submit to a male simply because it is expected even when she's in the right.

I have been accused of not being 'a woman' (from a man who felt threatened by the fact that I never cowed in front of him), of betraying my fellow females for my strident denouncement of the radical feminists who seem bent on creating a uni-sex. I have been condescended and patronized because I have breasts. I have been treated as a second-class, no-IQ individual because I do not have a penis.

Yes, perhaps society has gone too far in its quest to close the gap between male and female. BUT society consists of those same men and women! If a man refuses to stand for his convictions, it is not society's fault--it is his for taking a 'safer' avenue of silence. If a woman is treated as a barely sentient individual, then it is her responsibility to either change the behaviour or remove herself from the environment. Don't ballyhoo over the fact that men aren't allowed to be masculine and women, feminine! WE ARE ALL HUMAN. We all have exactly the same emotions, needs and wants. The difference is how we go about manifesting these.

Men and women are made to complement each other, not overrule or emulate. If you're an 'effeminate' man, fine. Doesn't mean you are forced to act in some weak-wristed, foppish, stereotypically 'female' manner any more than a 'masculine' woman need act in a swaggering, aggressive manner.

Those who seek to harm or kill don't give the proverbial rat's patoot if you're female or male or how you enact your gender. They only care for the pain and anguish they cause. And the last time I checked, we both bled red, we both felt pain and we both cried with loss. Quit your bitching and *do* something about it.
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:01 AM   #7
WOLFGIR
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Sweden
Age: 50
Posts: 3,450
Well I won´t go to deep into this because mostly these discussions are a loose loose situation but well, 2 cents..

I think that there are differencies between men and woman, sometimes none sometimes huge. I do also believe that there is a difference between men and men, and between women and women. Generally speaking, men and women show some sort of differencies, mainly physical, personlly I don´t mind that a bit!
I also usually find that there are some "mental" or "behaviour" differencies, but sometimes these are also null.

So what do I try to say. We are all different and some generalisations can be found, but the main thing is this, I believe men and women are different for a reason, we are the strongest when we work together, this be based on several experiments, and also from real life at working in groups, but based solely on my own ecxperiences. To base a difference in social and economic values due to sex is as low and stupid as to base it on race. Equal pay is for me a matter of just fact. It should be so!

On the matter of feminism, I am not a feminist, I mean I can´t really wave a banner for what I am not, I am a survivalist mentally. Though I stand up for womens equal rights without problem, but I do take a step back when someone start to throw feminism things about us "men" as a singel oppressive group, you have to be careful not to take either side to an extreme.

On the hand of female males or that stuff... You all have a choice, and we live in a very changing world..

Finally, I believe that men and women ar made to walk side by side in this world, as they do in a wolfpack. And for thoose that say something about wolfpacks only being led by male wolves. Study some more!

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

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Old 01-30-2002, 09:10 AM   #8
/)eathKiller
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: January 5, 2002
Location: Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
Age: 38
Posts: 6,043
I seriously doubt that anythign can be done. Lets all just submit to the chicks... they play golf better anyway.


[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: /)eathKiller ]

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Old 01-30-2002, 09:13 AM   #9
Galadria1
Zhentarim Guard
 

Join Date: January 11, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 369
Agree with Garnet. I am a female physician, and have been on occasion condescended to, or been the unwilling recipient of sexist "jokes" or unwanted attention. But, some people are just that way, and I have usually observed these same "people" being unpleasant to males, too, just in a different way. But, I am a "girly-girl" who has been taken to task for not standing in solidarity with other women about some radical-feminist thing or other. I remember well, in college, how the "all heterosexual sex is rape" discussion came and made a big stink. All of my male friends were actually anxious about it, and when I told them that I thought that it was balderdash, one of them reported it to a rad-fem, who very publically took me to task about it. (We were in the same class, Comparative Anatomy of all things, insert your joke here). I told her simply that my sex life was my own business, and that, fortunately, I had never been raped. She then said, loudly, "You must be a virgin, then." All eyes were on me, but I just said, "Why, how nice of you to think so, but I'm all dated up, and you're not my type, anyway." Lots of laughter, she actually blushed, and left me alone from then on.
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Old 01-30-2002, 09:33 AM   #10
Vaskez
Takhisis Follower
 

Join Date: April 30, 2001
Location: szép Magyarország (well not right now)
Posts: 5,089
Yeah I agree with the original post in that feminism is all well and good IN MEASURE. There is a good saying in hungarian, it loosely translates to "you have fallen off the other side of the horse now"...which is for situations where people go from one extreme view or action to another. Sexism towards women is bad but so is extreme feminism. In fact it is a undeniable fact that men and women are physically and to a lesser degree, mentally different and always will be. There is nothing wrong with that, that is the ONLY right way for it to be. Just thought I'd throw those thoughts in there.
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