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Old 02-13-2002, 08:15 AM   #31
JR Jansen
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:


This article sounds like every whiney looser who ever complained that they didnt get ahead because the "Boss" had it in for them...that they are way better than the competition...when in fact what is really happening is that the complainer just isn't good enough at playing the game to succeed...Raw talent, Pure strength, Better technical ability...these things can never comapre to the sheer RAW POWER of OFFICE POLITICS!




Well, it seems things have been fixed in the past. I can remember that i saw a documentary about a Roumanian or Russian ex-gymnast and she aswell as her trainers clearly sad that the judges made 'arrangements' before the competition. It wasn't as such that they got payed but that they talked and decided beforehand who was going to win medals. Of course if an athelete would make a very noticable mistake, like falling down, they couldn't do that anymore but in a sense it was rigged from the start. If it can happen in gymnastics it can happen in figure skating.
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Old 02-13-2002, 08:35 AM   #32
KHaN
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quote:
Originally posted by Moni:


The interview Rex and I saw, she said quite clearly, "I was punched in the stomach. I was in a lot of pain." Which she followed with some dramatic overplay of fighting against the pain to go out there and skate in the Olympics, playing it up the best she could, like she should have never been out there after the collision, but did it because she is a champion, a star, and must go on.

I don't understand your question about them going after the Russians. What do you mean, like they were making a blatent attempt to take them out of competition in the crash? If so, I never said that, I just said it was bull...from the replay we saw here, she turned and was facing him before she ploughed into him and fell to the ice clutching her stomach. I thought it looked fake, Rex thought it looked fake, we both agreed that it looked like she had time to have moved and avoided the collision, but she saw an opportunity for more drama and took it.



I'm not sure if she said "punched" or "hit" but regardless all she really had to say was "collided". The way she phrased her answer it sounded as if he ment to hit her. I've seen plenty of drama from sports celebrities in the last 2 plus decades and that's just what I saw from her. She should have just picked herself up and acted like a true champion. What I saw was pure drama-queen.

Having said that I must say that I too believe that the Canadians should have won the gold. They made no mistakes and the Russians did.
But I'm not a judge and wouldn't want to be one.
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Old 02-13-2002, 08:47 AM   #33
Ryanamur
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quote:
Originally posted by Moni:


The interview Rex and I saw, she said quite clearly, "I was punched in the stomach. I was in a lot of pain." Which she followed with some dramatic overplay of fighting against the pain to go out there and skate in the Olympics, playing it up the best she could, like she should have never been out there after the collision, but did it because she is a champion, a star, and must go on.



Moni, was the interview clip or was it a full sit-in? If it was clipped, it could be misleading. I saw another interview (live on NBC) where she said: "It felt like...(little pause)...I was punched in the stomach. I was in a lot of pain. I had the wind knock out of me". If they clipped it (thrust me, they often do), that could be the cause of our confusion.

Also, to the other here who think that she acted like a drama queen. One of the first thing she said when she walk off the ice to Canadian Media was something along those lines: It was a freak accident, it hurts alot. I'm OK and we will skate our program. I hope that (insert Russian male skater name here) was not hurt. It would be unfortunate to see them drop out because of this.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

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Old 02-13-2002, 09:22 AM   #34
Link
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
The Canadians WERE robbed! It was a setup.

It's been reported that the French judge has said she was told to vote for the Russians, and a Russian judge would vote for the French team in a later event. (I can't remember which one)

The Canadian team was the clear winner.



I heard about what happened, but I didn't know about this Ronn. Are you sure about that?
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Old 02-13-2002, 09:38 AM   #35
Ronn_Bman
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It was reported yesterday that an investigation had been requested because there was evidence of collusion between the French and Russian judges.

This morning's news said a reporter was told by the French judge that she was told by her commission to give the win to the Russians in exchange for a vote from them later but has since refused to talk about it.

This isn't the exact story I saw on the news, but it's all I found in a quick look. If I find the other story I'll post a link.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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Old 02-13-2002, 10:16 AM   #36
adam warlock
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*points at the judges at the news* did you see? they are talking to each! I bet they are having lunch afterwards [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img]
they shouldn't communicate with one to another because that is a good way to scam/blackmail/make empty promises...
each should be given a security guard to prevent the scandal and each should have their own judging box to prevent eye contact with other judges...
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Old 02-13-2002, 10:28 AM   #37
Grojlach
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
It was reported yesterday that an investigation had been requested because there was evidence of collusion between the French and Russian judges.

This morning's news said a reporter was told by the French judge that she was told by her commission to give the win to the Russians in exchange for a vote from them later but has since refused to talk about it.

This isn't the exact story I saw on the news, but it's all I found in a quick look. If I find the other story I'll post a link.




As if this is really anything new...No offense, but with sports like these (even though "sports" is debatable, I think "art" is more accurate), it's very hard to determine whether the judges are biased or not. Heck, for all we know the Canadians had their own little arrangements as well, so if this is the beginning of uncovering the "dirty" judges arrangements, you very well might be opening a can of worms...

But to everyone, please see everything in perspective... Don't forget it's a sport, not a declaration of war or a real disaster. While a plane crashes in Iran, killing all of its 117 passengers and crew members, the entire world is only yelling about how unfair a judge's decision was in a game of figure skating... Sheesh.
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Old 02-13-2002, 10:41 AM   #38
Grojlach
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And to those who think that the Canadians will end up with the Gold Medal after the investigation, well, I have my doubts. If a committee is able to change the final result of a game because they are able to point out that the arbiter made a mistake in any way, then you might be opening yet another can of worms.
Just focusing on football (soccer) only, many matches had their disputable moments, moments the entire football following world could fall over, but never was the result of a match changed because 95% of the world thought that the arbiter was biased. The only thing that could happen is a reprimande or suspension for the arbiter, and if they can prove he was bribed by a third party, a suspension and penalty for those who bribed him. (If they can prove the skaters themselves did the bribe or were aware of it, it's a whole different matter of course, as it's clearly then that the competitors were the ones who cheated, not a third party).
If in this case a committee is able to change the result afterwards because a third party had unjustifiable influence on it, we're up for a major revolution in sports...

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

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Old 02-13-2002, 11:02 AM   #39
Ronn_Bman
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I will agree that, personally, I believe figure skating is more art than sport.

Obviously, this scandal isn't the end of the world, and as the article I linked to pointed out, it certainly wasn't the first time something like this has happened, but does that make it "unworthy" of discussion? Is this any less important to talk about than anything else on this board?

Is this more important than people dying in a plane crash? No, but no one implied it was more important. Are roll playing games and joke threads more important? No, but that's what we do here. Play around, joke, and discuss. What's important to some may not be important to others, buy that doesn't mean it isn't important at all. Because people cheat anyway we shouldn't expect more?

BTW, the point was that there appears to have been an agreement prior to the event to determine the outcome. If the judges aren't going to, at least, wait until the competition to decide their scores, why bother?

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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Old 02-13-2002, 11:27 AM   #40
Cerek the Barbaric
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Ronn Bman

I heard the same report on The Evening News with Tom Brokaw last night. I believe the Russians were supposed to reciprocate in the Ice Dancing competition.

AFA as claims of "drama-queen" go, I personally haven't seen any of it. I was cruising IronWorks while the competition was on. I didn't even see the complete routine of the Canadians or the Russians and I've seen no replay of the collision, so I can't comment on that.

What I did see were several interviews of the Canadian team. They were literally being interviewed every time they turned around. I saw separate sit-down interviews on The Today Show (live show - early AM) and The Tonight Show (pre-recorded, because it aired at 11pm, but the interview was done outside in the daylight).

Both skaters were consistent in their respect for the Russians. They were more cautious about revealing their feelings in the earlier interviews, but later in the day, Sale finally said "We know in our hearts that we really won the gold, and that's what really matters". Both of them said that they had to put this incident behind them and just move on to the next competition. They both accepted the fact that the decision will NOT be overturned, no matter what the ISU investigation uncovers.

As per a story on MSNBC yesterday, don't look for any dramatic reforms in the judging any time soon. Nagano had a scandal just as large as this one, and nothing came out of it. AAMOF, I don't even have a clue as to which skaters were involved in that one, although it's a good bet that it once again revolved around the Russians winning the gold when the silver-medalists gave a better performance.

Magik

I agree with you that the Russian judge should be permanently barred from her position. I don't what type of "prestige" and perks go along with being an ice skating judge, but this seems like the only real solution to bring about change. According to EVERY opinion I've heard on the news..."backroom deals" and collusion among judges is standard operating procedure. The ONLY way that will change is if the judges know they will be permanently removed from their position if found guilty of such actions.

But, to play devil's advocate, there is a good chance that Canada had tried to work a deal of thier own to overcome Russia's stronghold on the sport. They finally have some skaters that are good enough to challenge the Russians. but it never hurts to have a back-up plan. This is pure speculation on my part, but seems likely enough. (No offense, Ryanamur, I still think the Canadians were blatantly robbed).

Grojlich(sp?)

You're right that there are FAR more important "real life" issues going on that we should be concerned about. I used to really get "riled up" over sports when I felt my team had been cheated, but a few years ago, I found that I couldn't even remember who had won the Superbowl, World Series, NBA or NCAA Championships the previous year (unless it was a favorite team of mine). Why? Because, in the BIG picture, sports are nothing more than an entertaining diversion and I really didn't care who had won. There are MUCH more important things in life to be concerned with.
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