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Old 08-22-2001, 04:02 PM   #31
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Firstly Obi wan is fictional and is actually the voice of George Lucas or whoever wrote that line, and secondly are you saying that you cannot even be sure you are an awareness? How are you thinking? How is one thought following another if you are not aware?

Yes! You can be sure you exist.


However, your awareness changes from moment to moment as you get older and gather more experience. I am not the "I" that I was before I read your message. So, you cannot really have a true concept of "I" because, as soon as you have, the "I" that you are has changed. So you only have a concept of the "I" that you were, not the "I" that you are.

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Old 08-22-2001, 04:02 PM   #32
Dramnek_Ulk
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You can lie down and die in anguish, proclaiming all the while about how we're all in a dream immagined by a butterfly or you could accept how real for most people suffering is and try and help them,Except for thats a false dichotomy but never mind.
and the matrix had so many holes in its plot a good poke would have sent the whole rotten structure tumbling down.

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God bless Atheism!
 
Old 08-22-2001, 04:04 PM   #33
Istaron
Banned User
 

Join Date: June 16, 2001
Location: Uppland
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Firstly Obi wan is fictional and is actually the voice of George Lucas or whoever wrote that line, and secondly are you saying that you cannot even be sure you are an awareness? How are you thinking? How is one thought following another if you are not aware?

Yes! You can be sure you exist.

You missunderstood me. We all are alive, and probally aware too (as black mages become). What I meant was just that we can't be sure of anything, exept that we are alive since e do tink.

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We call him Bobby Corwen
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:05 PM   #34
Moridin
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
Cogito ergo sum, exactly! (and yes I know it's a cliche...)
I do agree Yorick, of course we have an awareness. Personally I loved the Matrix and I do love to speculate on these matters; but in the end, I really don't think most of these theories (such as the 15 minutes one) are unholdable. I do know that all we really have is our own awareness, but I do believe that that awareness is real, and not something that could be constructed by a superbeing in 15 minutes. It just wouldn't feel that way if it would have been.

It is not that the superbeing created it in 15 minutes...it might have taken them millions of years, but perhaps the creation has only been in place for 15 minutes or 15 years or 15 days, doesn't matter. The theory behind it is that you do not and can not know for sure that this is not true (i.e. there is no way to disprove it). Also, it does not mean that we are not aware now, only that our memories of the past could be a creation rather than a reality.



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:06 PM   #35
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
However, your awareness changes from moment to moment as you get older and gather more experience. I am not the "I" that I was before I read your message. So, you cannot really have a true concept of "I" because, as soon as you have, the "I" that you are has changed. So you only have a concept of the "I" that you were, not the "I" that you are.

I never said you could know yourself, but that you could know you existed. Descartes "I think, therefore I am." (yes Mel, the old cliche)



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:08 PM   #36
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
None of us can be SURE that were not in a dream imagined by a butterfly can we?(its extremely improbable but possible) Nor can we be sure that we ARE in a dream imagined by a butterfly. This is what i am trying to explain (failing miserably i think not your fault)

Therefore, the only logical state of mind to be in is to be confused
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:10 PM   #37
Istaron
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Join Date: June 16, 2001
Location: Uppland
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My friend said something the other day. He said he is imortal. No one can prove he is not without acctually kill him, and then he would not suffer of having had wrong...

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We call him Bobby Corwen
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:15 PM   #38
Melusine
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Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 6,541
Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
It is not that the superbeing created it in 15 minutes...it might have taken them millions of years, but perhaps the creation has only been in place for 15 minutes or 15 years or 15 days, doesn't matter. The theory behind it is that you do not and can not know for sure that this is not true (i.e. there is no way to disprove it). Also, it does not mean that we are not aware now, only that our memories of the past could be a creation rather than a reality.
I know I know ...I'm not stupid ...I was just trying to summarise it as short as possible because lazy
But this possibility that our memories are creation rather than reality, I just don't buy it. I KNOW it cannot be disproved in any way, but to me that is not a reason to accept it as possibility. Reasoning and logic can make many things seem possible, but to me they're just words. When I am alone with my thoughts and memories I feel their reality and know for certain that they are real.

BTW An example of these logic/reasoning traps I am talking about (wholly offtopic but there ya go) is one of Aquino's 'infallible' proofs that (a) God exists.
Everything is in movement. Right? Right. Everything that moves, needs to be 'pushed' or moved by something else first, in order for it to move. Right? Right. So, if everything needs something else to move for it to move itself, then what is there at the end of this long chain of domino stones? The Immobile Mover, the centre of the Universe who gave the first push, i.e. God. It's 'infallible' logic but do you believe me?



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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:17 PM   #39
Melusine
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 6,541
Quote:
Originally posted by Istaron:
My friend said something the other day. He said he is imortal. No one can prove he is not without acctually kill him, and then he would not suffer of having had wrong...

But wrong he would have been, nevertheless.



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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art
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Old 08-22-2001, 04:17 PM   #40
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
i think im going to take a philosophy course in 11th grade - this is fun!
It is extremely improbable that your friend is immortal, but we cant be SURE. Even if we kill him, there are thousands of other possibilities - he could hav made an illusion, he could have used a double, he could still be alive and laughing his head off at us. And to define the term "immortal" we need the term "mortal". How can we define this if we are not sure what death IS? Or if there even is such a thing as death?
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